Haters Gonna Hate

[IrrelevantComment]

There is a lot of posts on this forum about how us lurkers just demand games and never contribute anything, and about how critical we are of projects that don't get finished. And honestly, it is justified. I've been lurking for a while now, always hoping that something good will come of LoK and never contributing anything myself.

But I just want to say that we (some of us anyway) do appreciate the time and the effort you put in. I have been programming for 6 or so years, and not once have I ever finished a game. I know why it is so hard to finish a game, especially one as epic as LoK, and I know that it is not your fault that projects have failed and been cancelled.

Basically, I just want to say thank you to all the people here that put tonnes of work into making games for use useless lurkers. Your work is appreciated, even if we don't always show it. So thank you.

[BlueLight]

Why thank you for such a nice post. What languages do you program in if i might ask?

[IrrelevantComment]

Used to use C#, but have been using Actionscript 3 for the past year or so. I only do programming though (through FlashDevelop), I can't do animations and never really liked Adobe Flash...

[MastrMarz]

I'm just gonna go out on a limb and say that I'm borderline-having faith in the LoK project. :/ No offense to the makers, from what I see on this forum, things are moving along... /secretly/ well? I can't quite tell. But... The game is gonna have to be epic or it's not gonna cut it. Some of the stuff people have/are/will come up with at the creative corner is so good, so well done, compared to LoK, that it's kinda... outdated?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all in for seeing LoK come back, but I did see that Dead post and had to agree with the guy on some points. I personally love seeing updates, it's what's keeping me interested in Despair Labyrinth, and... I dunno. :/ I can't wait to see it come back, but at the same time, I can.

Anyways. Keep up the hard fight, you programmers and artists working on all of the projects around here are my freakin idol. Good luck bros.

[hornguy6]

It's not that I don't appreciate programmers and coders (I have a lot of them for friends) but when people don't show updates on their work but say it's coming along, there's no verification that it is and over time with real updates you start to become naturally suspicious. I think a lot of people would rather the people running it simply come out and declare it dead or at least give them something to chew on. It's like knowing that dinner is supposed to be served at a restaurant but you wait for several hours and nothing's come out (including the bread) and you aren't being let into the kitchen. Anyways, I just think that people are going to complain either way, but one way will get you far more complaints and much less faith. Those are just my two cents. It may be right or wrong, but I just felt like getting my opinion out there.

[trunks2585]

It's not that I don't appreciate programmers and coders (I have a lot of them for friends) but when people don't show updates on their work but say it's coming along, there's no verification that it is and over time with real updates you start to become naturally suspicious. I think a lot of people would rather the people running it simply come out and declare it dead or at least give them something to chew on. It's like knowing that dinner is supposed to be served at a restaurant but you wait for several hours and nothing's come out (including the bread) and you aren't being let into the kitchen. Anyways, I just think that people are going to complain either way, but one way will get you far more complaints and much less faith. Those are just my two cents. It may be right or wrong, but I just felt like getting my opinion out there.

Because this topic tends to get me foaming at the mouth, I'll just say this sums up my thoughts nicely.

[Renara]

As ever, the dead-line for demos, teasers and the v0.3 release is "when they're ready"; things won't go any quicker by releasing unfinished content, and if anything it'd just add to the pressure to finish and make the waiting more difficult. Other developers are welcome to work in their own way, releasing demos etc. as they go, and it may, or may not, work for them, but either way I don't intend to do this; demos of specific features will come if I'm not certain about how those features are working, I'm not releasing demos just to appease people that will probably continue being impatient anyway

To be honest, expectations on the game are high, and the game has been way too ambitious from the start which has only increased the work required hugely, but even so it is my intention to release something special, but that's not going to be served by showing unfinished characters or scenes, so I'm not going to unless I feel I have to, which right now I don't, no matter how many people are clamouring for it

So, people's patience continues to be appreciated, and hopefully it'll be worth it, but for the rest, you're welcome to find other ways to wait, there are loads of great projects in the Creative Corner, a Roleplaying and a General forum, and other websites and activities out there! There's also a mailing list on the front page, and a twitter feed, though I'm no good with social media so I'm terrible when it comes to updating it.

[trunks2585]

*twitch* You just had to respond didn't you? I tried to keep my mouth shut and I tried to stay off my usual rants, but you know what? Why not, rage mode go.

As ever, the dead-line for demos, teasers and the v0.3 release is "when they're ready";

If you just wanted to say that, save your breath, we already know all this. We're just voicing our displeasure about it.

things won't go any quicker by releasing unfinished content, and if anything it'd just add to the pressure to finish and make the waiting more difficult.

I don't think it's possible to put any more pressure on you by this point, you are quite literally at a 'nothing to loose' point by showing something. Hey look at it like this, show you've done something and at least when this project finally does crash and burn people can't say 'well he never really did anything, he just bullshitted everyone the whole time.'

Other developers are welcome to work in their own way, releasing demos etc. as they go, and it may, or may not, work for them, but either way I don't intend to do this; demos of specific features will come if I'm not certain about how those features are working, I'm not releasing demos just to appease people that will probably continue being impatient anyway

Oh bullshit. You already had a situation where your ex team members (including yours truly) couldn't agree with one of your game play mechanics from how you described it and we asked for a demo. You agreed to it, we gave you like a month to work on it, you said that was plenty of time and were surprised we gave you such a long deadline. Then the deadline came and you had nothing to show, blaming it on 'last minute real life work'. Newsflash, if it was so easy to whip up a demo, then some real life work the day before shouldn't have affected everything. Either you lied about being able to do it, or you procrastinated the whole time and then when you were gonna finally work on it you got slammed with work, instead of being responsible and getting the demo done and out of the way for your very testy feeling team members. And then when you had the nerve to actually throw in my face 'do you want to do the coding!?' you had 3-y who was a coder retort back and flat out tell you that he would have done some of the coding for you if you weren't such a control freak about wanting to do all the work yourself! That whole incident cost you almost the full team!

If you couldn't even get a demo for your team ready, I doubt you could make a demo for the community.

To be honest, expectations on the game are high, and the game has been way too ambitious from the start which has only increased the work required hugely

Then maybe it's time to think more realistically about this. Face it, this game CAN NOT live up to anyone expectations by this point, not even your own. And the longer the game is delayed the more people expect something grand. You are already doomed, so it's best to settle for average and try to work up from there, because unlike big name games, this doesn't have to be the final release you make.

, but even so it is my intention to release something special, but that's not going to be served by showing unfinished characters or scenes, so I'm not going to unless I feel I have to, which right now I don't, no matter how many people are clamouring for it

Why not be honest, you'll never feel like you have to, hell why not say what you are really thinking. 'It's my game, I'll do what I want with it, deal with it.' That's what you basically always told us whenever we got into debates with you about gameplay mechanics or plot elements.

So, people's patience continues to be appreciated, and hopefully it'll be worth it, but for the rest, you're welcome to find other ways to wait, there are loads of great projects in the Creative Corner, a Roleplaying and a General forum, and other websites and activities out there! There's also a mailing list on the front page, and a twitter feed, though I'm no good with social media so I'm terrible when it comes to updating it.

Oh sure divert everyone's attention away. Of course you are happy there's all these other things for people to entertain themselves with, most of all because non of them are really trying to be a finished legend of krystal project, and it gets people off your back.

Your public speeches are always the same thing and you feel you are being personally attacked (which to be fair you are). I'm sick of reading the same posts as I'm sure you're sick of writing them. So why don't you try and do something about it besides making these posts? It's really amazing how the 'leader' in all this is the least credible person. And you know what? Until you show everyone something, threads like this, and posts from me and other dissatisfied members are gonna keep happening, no matter how many supporters come to your aid.

[Suraru]

Your title of resident asshole fits nicely XD

But really Renara, I would just say "I have a life, I can't work on it 24/7"

Haters gunna hate.

[Renara]

we gave you like a month to work on it, you said that was plenty of time and were surprised we gave you such a long deadline. Then the deadline came and you had nothing to show

"like a month" being a week, and I had maybe an hour's worth of debugging left when I got delayed. I could easily have just said nothing and posted it a day late (when it would have been ready), but instead I posted on the day to say why I was delayed and you exploded, taking the opportunity to go around posting about the unmitigated failure all over the public forum; so I decided I needed a break from the whole thing and disappeared for a month. I could post the demo right now as I did actually finish it in the end, for my own benefit, after Area 52 was formed, but I'm not going to as it's just an extended LoK v0.2 scene with some different gameplay coding bolted on to showcase an idea.

this doesn't have to be the final release you make.

It won't be
v0.3 is just a slightly bigger chunk of Sauria, the whole point is getting it as complete as possible so that all that's left is to add more content. Sure it could probably have been planned in a more incremental way, but from the start the team didn't really know what we wanted exactly and it just ballooned, if anything I should have made non-democratic decisions from the start and limited things right down to just expanding LoK as it was, with tweaked game-play, and the PlayShapes art-style, which was actually what I'd intended when I started on my own, but that's moot now. I'm quite happy to roll with the overly ambitious target as that's what I've now invested a ton of time in; as ever, anyone looking to do a simpler or different LoK of their own are welcome to form a team, or go it alone, and try

That's what you basically always told us whenever we got into debates with you about gameplay mechanics or plot elements.

You're skipping a step; it's what happened when discussions weren't going anywhere, and it became high time a decision was made instead, as a discussion is well-and-good so long as it is going somewhere, but sometimes they wouldn't. I only pulled the "my project" card when you were basically looking to do the project with a separate team already after my hiatus, that's where Area 52 came from.

Oh sure divert everyone's attention away.

Oh sure, posting about stuff to do is evil now =/
I'm just pointing out that threads demanding demos and deadlines (which this one wasn't supposed to be, sorry IrrelevantComment!) aren't really a very productive way to wait, there are other things to do here and plenty of options for being informed about LoK while doing something else entirely.

and you feel you are being personally attacked

Not really; I completely understand why people may be frustrated or tired of waiting, all I do is post to point out there's no real benefit to making demands, and be clear what my intentions are and what options that people who are tired of waiting have instead. It's either that or I just lock or prune topics that get onto the same tired discussion, but I don't like locking topics that aren't really trolling or whatever.

So why don't you try and do something about it besides making these posts?

I am doing something about it, in addition to making these posts (since the two aren't mutually exclusive), but as I've already said quite a lot; I'm doing it in a closed way, with no public releases until I feel it's an appropriate time for them, which was the original issue I was responding to anyway. If you think that posting here cuts into my time to work on the game, what do you think releasing unnecessary demos would do to that time?

[Thaedael]

I am sick of this topic. Honest. If there is nothing to show people get self-entitled and want stuff. If there is stuff to show people get self-entitled and want stuff. If people act self-entitled, then there is no need motivation to show things, let alone talk about it. Ren says hes working on it, I don't know if he is, or isn't. If he gets half as harassed as I was with project ascension then fuck I wouldn't want to do anything, or show anything. I quit ascension because LoK forums is one of the worst place to showcase work. Since then I have started working on my own project, guess what, I am 3 months in, have hundreds of sprites done and a chapter done. Since no one knows about it I don't get harassed yay. Go play a game, read a book, make your own project, etc, but baiting renara and trunks with a thread like this is getting old and under my skin. I want to lock this, but if I do another one will show up in exactly 2 weeks, 1 day and 18 hours.

[trunks2585]

"like a month" being a week,

Oh that is so bullshit and you know it, you are now flat out lying and you know it. If anyone else from the old team was still here they could confirm this, but unlike me, they are smart and have moved on with life. So it's pretty much your word vs. mine, and I'm not going to drag Eggplants into this. So I guess it's up to the readers to decide who's more honest about this.

and I had maybe an hour's worth of debugging left when I got delayed. I could easily have just said nothing and posted it a day late (when it would have been ready), but instead I posted on the day to say why I was delayed and you exploded, taking the opportunity to go around posting about the unmitigated failure all over the public forum; so I decided I needed a break from the whole thing and disappeared for a month. I could post the demo right now as I did actually finish it in the end, for my own benefit, after Area 52 was formed, but I'm not going to as it's just an extended LoK v0.2 scene with some different gameplay coding bolted on to showcase an idea.

If you had any damn common sense you would have posted it a day late, I probably would have still made a smartass post about you being late but at least you still would have something to show for yourself and them maybe we wouldn't have a thread like this today. And yeah, I know I've posted many times about your short comings. I think everyone here that's expecting a game from you deserves to know the truth. Besides they would no doubt want an explination for why the team was falling apart. And you have the demo finished and ready to be posted, but you're not going to? DO YOU REALLY EXPECT ME TO BUY THAT? If you have the demo ready then post it, moot point or not! Go on, prove me wrong, prove all the doubters wrong and for the first time in damn near TWO YEARS, SHOW SOMETHING FOR YOURSELF! Or continue to show nothing and draw more and more doubt.

It won't be
v0.3 is just a slightly bigger chunk of Sauria, the whole point is getting it as complete as possible so that all that's left is to add more content. Sure it could probably have been planned in a more incremental way, but from the start the team didn't really know what we wanted exactly and it just ballooned, if anything I should have made non-democratic decisions from the start

Instead you decided to do that after you had a team willing to support you.

and limited things right down to just expanding LoK as it was, with tweaked game-play, and the PlayShapes art-style, which was actually what I'd intended when I started on my own, but that's moot now. I'm quite happy to roll with the overly ambitious target as that's what I've now invested a ton of time in; as ever, anyone looking to do a simpler or different LoK of their own are welcome to form a team, or go it alone, and try

You're skipping a step; it's what happened when discussions weren't going anywhere, and it became high time a decision was made instead, as a discussion is well-and-good so long as it is going somewhere, but sometimes they wouldn't. I only pulled the "my project" card when you were basically looking to do the project with a separate team already after my hiatus, that's where Area 52 came from.

First off, the discussions were going somewhere, and they would have gone faster if you would have gotten behind the idea (like the rest of us) of talking this over on a messenger, and even after you got AIM it was damn near impossible to get a conversation going with you as you left it up in the background and didn't check on it.

Second, no, you pulled the 'my project' card when everyone told you that your idea with the red eye in the cave was a stupid idea. Kat hadn't even started working on making a krystal model yet, and I'm not sure if RonPepper was up for doing backgrounds yet or not. Either way your 'my project, my way' response came before we were even considering splitting and making a new team. I don't know if you're lying on purpose, or if you just have a poor memory.

After that, yes we decided after you decided to go on a hiatus that we'd form a team without you, Area 52 may not have worked out, and we suffered many of the same problems as the original team, but it proved that we weren't going to wait around on you coming back.

Oh sure, posting about stuff to do is evil now =/
I'm just pointing out that threads demanding demos and deadlines (which this one wasn't supposed to be, sorry IrrelevantComment!) aren't really a very productive way to wait, there are other things to do here and plenty of options for being informed about LoK while doing something else entirely.

This isn't about maximizing productivity. This is about you doing some form of damage control for yourself and re-establishing some credit. Do you think these forums came to exist simply because you said 'I want to take up the challenge playshapes has left behind'? No it came about because you also posted PROOF OF WORK DONE ON YOUR OWN! You SHOWED everyone you could do something, you didn't just tell them. And now you're doing the exact opposite. It may not be the most productive way to work, but let's face it, if you have nothing to show after two years, I think it's a little late to be concerned with maxing out your productivity.

Not really; I completely understand why people may be frustrated or tired of waiting, all I do is post to point out there's no real benefit to making demands, and be clear what my intentions are and what options that people who are tired of waiting have instead. It's either that or I just lock or prune topics that get onto the same tired discussion, but I don't like locking topics that aren't really trolling or whatever.

I am doing something about it, in addition to making these posts (since the two aren't mutually exclusive), but as I've already said quite a lot; I'm doing it in a closed way, with no public releases until I feel it's an appropriate time for them, which was the original issue I was responding to anyway. If you think that posting here cuts into my time to work on the game, what do you think releasing unnecessary demos would do to that time?

I'm not implying that these posts cut into your work time, I'm saying stop making excuses, you say the same thing over and over like a broken record. You could post a screenshot at least.

I am sick of this topic. Honest. If there is nothing to show people get self-entitled and want stuff. If there is stuff to show people get self-entitled and want stuff. If people act self-entitled, then there is no need motivation to show things, let alone talk about it. Ren says hes working on it, I don't know if he is, or isn't. If he gets half as harassed as I was with project ascension then fuck I wouldn't want to do anything, or show anything. I quit ascension because LoK forums is one of the worst place to showcase work. Since then I have started working on my own project, guess what, I am 3 months in, have hundreds of sprites done and a chapter done. Since no one knows about it I don't get harassed yay. Go play a game, read a book, make your own project, etc, but baiting renara and trunks with a thread like this is getting old and under my skin. I want to lock this, but if I do another one will show up in exactly 2 weeks, 1 day and 18 hours.

Sorry Thaedael, I had a feeling I'd be hearing from you after my response to Ren, and I know you're sick of the bickering. You know how quick I am to get pissed off and I do try and keep it down, but like you said, this thread should probably remain unlocked. Maybe this can be renamed the 'trunks and ren bitching at each other thread' or something, so like you're saying, there would be only one thread with it happening (or maybe there should be a bitching area on the forums, i dunno). On the other hand I almost want to say to lock this thread and see how accurate your prediction is. (I wouldn't put it past someone to make a thread in exactly 2 weeks, 1 day, and 18 hours of locking this one just because you said it.)

[KaTsuO_O]

...

IrrelevantComment wanted to say something, leave his opinion and now what have this become? A flaming zone and with that being said I lock the thread.

Thanks BlueLight for the report.

[Renara]

Sorry to bump, as thread digressions like these are no fun for anyone, but I need to counter a couple of accusations:

you are now flat out lying and you know it.

Sun Dec 26, 2010 9:32 pm
Can we get a scene demo of this by January 5th, Ren?

Okay, ten days, still; I had intended to just bolt the game-play example onto one of the existing scenes in v0.2, but it turned out more complicated than that since none of the scenes had enough segments to demonstrate properly, so I set about (badly) animating some extra segments so I could show what I needed to, it was after this that I got interrupted before I could finish tracking down a couple of lingering bugs that stopped the scene progressing. I did say as much at the time.
Besides which, I was the one that offered to make the demo, and it's worth clarifying that it wasn't a demo of anything major, just a single game-play example to show off how an idea that had been under lengthy discussion might work, in order to put to rest the doubts about it with a concrete example. You being pissy about the delay wasn't unexpected, but your total refusal to wait that tiny bit longer, and taking such thoughts to the main forums was what made me decide that I needed the hiatus, the demo itself at that point had become irrelevant.

you pulled the 'my project' card when everyone told you that your idea with the red eye in the cave was a stupid idea. Kat hadn't even started working on making a krystal model yet, and I'm not sure if RonPepper was up for doing backgrounds yet or not. Either way your 'my project, my way' response came before we were even considering splitting and making a new team. I don't know if you're lying on purpose, or if you just have a poor memory.

Except that Katsu0_0 and RonPepper weren't involved at that stage at all? They didn't have access to the forums until after I came back. It was pToon-T that raised doubts with the RedEye scene, something which I had thought was a storyline item we'd already settled long ago, and suddenly everyone had issues with the idea, yet no-one had much in the way of alternatives. In the end (after a ton of back-and-forth) the closest to an ultimatum that I came was:

I'm really not happy about dropping [the scene] unless we have something good to replace it with

I should note that I spent a lot of my time being supportive and encouraging discussion, but ultimately if I didn't feel it was benefiting the project then I was going to come down on it if I had to; arguably I should have done-so from the start, it would have saved a lot of time, but I wanted to hear out people's problems with the idea to see if theres was a compromise or an alternative, since we all seemed to agree on the need for something.