Breeding Season: Alpha Version 5.3 [Update 11/3/14]

[Evangelion-01]

I think this is not the norm but rather the first project that rose to some real popularity and than was run down in the ground by it's developers...and the particular way it happened made everyone feel betrayed.
There may be some other scetchy project on Patreon now, but to be fair there are also quiet alot promising ones that have seen completion either in the past or near future.
Among breading games the rate of success seem incredible low though...

[ValturNaa]

I think that's because of the scope and ambition required to finish one. It's like a crafting game: you need a lot of content. Even without showing the actual breeding, as BS did, you still have to include numerous species and various hybrids, hybrids of those, etc. I'm involved in one of several projects that were attempting to rebuild BS better, but it's been put on hold for now because we simply don't have the manpower to churn out all the necessary content. This type of game really needs multiple artists and a team of animators, even if it can get by with just one coder and one writer.

[true fmc]

Back in the day i used to hack BS to change a couple of things. And i must say that for a couple of times i studied the idea of doing a game like BS, or even straigh up hacking it, and enabling mods so the community could add animations,monsters,traits, etc to it. but i'm not an artist or writer, to gather support in the p0rn world would be unlikely to say the least.

Quite frankly i think showing the actual breeding, with all the variants was a huge mistake, at least using sprites. It made the game require over 300 animations, if i remember right. something that even though i defend the game at time was highly unlikely to happen. An more sensible approach would be using 3d characters since you would have only to create the body/rig once and then animate it to each species. But that brings the problem of 3d.

So far, for what i gather the best BS "successor" would be Portals of phereon, but i don't think the creator will ever put any animations in it

[Fornax]

Back in the day i used to hack BS to change a couple of things. And i must say that for a couple of times i studied the idea of doing a game like BS, or even straigh up hacking it, and enabling mods so the community could add animations,monsters,traits, etc to it. but i'm not an artist or writer, to gather support in the p0rn world would be unlikely to say the least.

Quite frankly i think showing the actual breeding, with all the variants was a huge mistake, at least using sprites. It made the game require over 300 animations, if i remember right. something that even though i defend the game at time was highly unlikely to happen. An more sensible approach would be using 3d characters since you would have only to create the body/rig once and then animate it to each species. But that brings the problem of 3d.

So far, for what i gather the best BS "successor" would be Portals of phereon, but i don't think the creator will ever put any animations in it

Starting from scratch is a bad idea for a number of reasons, one of which being the animations will likely never surpass the original in terms of quality because of radically fewer resources. There won't be enough inspiration for such a project to reach completion as is already evident. I think that if you were to do what you said in your first paragraph and got the ball rolling with a few shoddy animations with the available sprites it could generate some community excitement. People were willing to pay five or ten dollars upwards for the early access to the POSSIBILITY of one additional animation. But that was only because as a multi-platform flash game, it had superior animation and gameplay to anything else on the market. The market is still highly untapped because the people who develop these games are incredibly incompetent with resource management, which is why the majority of commitment should come from the community once the tools are in place.

To address the problem of animation numbers, it's actually not that bad if you produce the animations according to the couplings people want in order of priority. The developers went full retard by autistically going down the chart one by one instead of taking polls and by introducing new weird unattractive variations.

I know that if somebody put together a community effort to rebuild the game after shit hit the fan there would have been lots of people willing to test their hand at some amatuer animations of the kind that are scattered all over this board. It's sad that it wasn't done sooner but I believe there's a possibility it could still happen. I don't have any experience in Flash development personally but from what I understand taking the sprite pieces and creating animations isn't a lot different from the kinds of spin-off "PlayShapes" projects that have been attempted on this forum with moderate success.

tldr; "hacking it, and enabling mods so the community could add animations,monsters,traits, etc to it." <- this is what should be attempted to revive the game. Reboots will fail.

[ValturNaa]

... the fact that it was flash only made it possible to play online without a download, which made it less risky to try. The same could be done in HTML or any of the game platforms that support HTML export, and should be, given the imminent death of flash support. As for its "superior animation" the animations were actually pretty uninspiring all the way through--it's the fact that it had ANY that made it new and exciting. And while it may have been a mistake for development, that's the one feature that made Breeding Season attract attention; without that, it was just a bad monster breeding game. I think the bigger mistake was actually listening to the public and continually adding new requested features, and not even doing so efficiently. Futas, lolis, genderbenders, and ferals all added a new layer of complexity to the development, and every added monster redoubled that complexity. If you look at the original 6 or 8 monsters, each of which had only 1 gender, the animation count wasn't bad. It's when they built up to 10 monster types each with 4 variants (thus multiplying the models to about 40) that the animation count got out of control.

...and animation *quality* does not depend on pre-existing resources. Animation quantity is what you're really on about. Quality just depends on a good artist who pays attention to detail. I've watched an artist named Jumbo frame-by-frame an animation that looks a hell of a lot better than S-Purple's and Mittsies' animations ever did. Problem is, that method is too time-consuming for the number of animations needed. Systems and multiple artists are needed to churn out the kind of quantity that is used for this type of game, which depends on a larger team. In the indie world, that seems to be a rarity. But I think multiple artists would be just as crucial if you didn't include the breeding animations, because you'd have to include more monsters, variants, and hybrids to keep things interesting, all of which would still include animated idles at the very least.

So, yeah, to come back to my earlier point: regardless of how you do it, you need a lot of content for this type of game, which requires a large and efficiently organized team with pre-existing funding. Or else the few who do join you have to burn their savings working full-time for years, until the project starts to attract attention and bring in enough money for those people to live on. People generally like paychecks for their work, which makes it a little difficult to find good artists who will work for scraps. And I'd love to see the face of the banker who receives your request for a business loan to start up something like this. So there's my two bits on why we won't see a complete animated breeding game anytime soon. The only reason your idea of ripping off the old BS files *might* work is because someone else already did the bulk of the work, and all you have to do is cobble the art together. But that art will clearly mark you as a BS remake and not a separate entity, so you'll pick up BS's pre-existing fanbase and maybe get going quicker, but you'll also get bombarded with people who just wanted to play the original and will complain to no end about any changes you make, and bombarded on the other side with people who wanted BS to grow a certain way, and now see their chance to make you do it. Striking out on your own may start slower, but you'll be your own entity, and fans will like you for YOU, not for BS that was. And you can't start out as BS then start over as something new, or you'll lose almost everyone you do get following you.

[true fmc]

i agree with both points of view.

And that's why i never actually pulled the trigger.
Hacking the original game comes with the problem of some legal action may take place, remember for the better or for the worse they had a contract and all, so some right over the thing they probably still have. Trying to profit over it would be asking for zombies to reappear and ask for their share.

Starting from the 0, well means starting from the 0. At this point i would rather have nothing to do with the original game. With me being an programmer, not an artist/writer and i would be putting my money in it, it would be easier to simply make a non p0rn game. And shot to a broader audience.

Either way, i don't see like something worth the effort.

[musical74]

I REALLY wish I could like posts here, ValturNaa points out a few very good reasons why BS failed and why a reboot isn't a good idea...

I thought that by listening to the public and including so many different traits that BS failed as a result. The problem with creating a new game based on something that's existed already is you need to make SURE it's not classified as a knock-off of the original. Stardew Valley is definitely inspired by Harvest Moon BUT Stardew Valley is it's own game, it's not "oh, this is a Harvest Moon knockoff". Other games are "this is a knockoff of Harvest Moon..." and generally get written off as such. What did SV do differently that made it "inspired by HM" and not "a HM knockoff"? There's enough subtle differences (and one glaring one) that while it is clearly modeled after Harvest Moon, it's not a Harvest Moon cheap knockoff.

TL,DR: It's fine to be inspired by a game, just made sure you do enough things differently so that fans of the original don't say it's a knockoff.

[ValturNaa]

Ditto for liking posts. That's exactly the reason my team decided we were going to start fresh, aim for higher quality, and set ourselves apart with unique monsters, an interesting title, and an engaging storyline. But we need more artists and better developed systems to really push the content, so we've had to postpone and pursue smaller projects in the meantime. I mean honestly, as bad as BS' quality was in places, it was a minor miracle that they managed to get as far as they did with the few people that they had working on it. A miracle that apparently has not been repeated in Cloud Meadow.

[RunningAroundInCircles]

I believe the miracle of BS that CM doesn't replicate is the simplicity over all. While most games have gameplay with H features, BS pulled it of to make the H the gameplay. And that in a way that the gameplay was fun even without the H. As such, I don't believe CM to be a failure, it's just a completely different game concept that is more common and less popular.

[bobman5000]

In all honesty i agree with most points you guys bring up about what led to the failure of this game
>terrible management i mean S-purples contract was stupidly written
>no set limits on anything allowing fans to ask infinitely for more crap

Hypothetically if i was managing the project i would have limited the game to 6 monster types with only 2 varieties base and feral no futa, neo or genderbend crap, 30 base traits 10 broneze which have both stat benefits and downsides 10 silver just straight up boosts and 10 gold which have a great up side and high stat boosts but are hard too unlock along with 3 player only traits gained through the story also gut male on male and female on female animation since logically in a "breeding" game having two of the same gender fuck is a waste of time also while i may get flak for say no futa earlier but make the player futa giving a more understandable reason for her making sexy time with her female animals since she can actually breed them as for story 3 story lines the main guild line, kala feral line and the countess's base line each with a perk and some other bonus tied to it total beast animation 36 player animations 24 plus maybe a cow milking one

after id fully done all that then maybe id consider fan suggestions for variations and other crap not just add shit mid development

[musical74]

Fans can ask for whatever they want, it's another matter entirely whether the devs will listen to them. Part of BS's failing was refusing to say "no" to anything the fans wanted. If they had said "Feral we can make work but no on the genderbending, no incest, no futa, and we'll keep it to just 6 monster types unless there is a huge push for a 7th" they may have done better with things. By saying yes to everything they created more and more work for themselves. They may have lost a few fans who were looking for certain kinks by saying "no" but by setting boundaries they might have well done a better job controlling things overall...

The best games seem to have an end, where there's a definite "this is the end of the game", and I'm not sure BS ever had an idea on what the end of the game woulud be.

[true fmc]

The problem with saying no to fans means losing patreons.
That's the deal with this model, you can't exactly say no to fans because you will lose support, the deal is:how much that no will be worth. losing 5 dollars or 100?
And i understand that not saying no means a game that keeps getting bigger and bigger, but is the curse of these kinda of project.

On another note someone wants to donate an animation for testing purposes?

[Evangelion-01]

still if a 5$ pledger request an additional character or trait that would raise costs for drawing by 100$ in total makes it rather unsavory... except you plan with a developement time of 2+ Years
saying no can still be acceptable if you offer a slim but otherwise solid game in that time...and than offer to add content in an already finished game

[true fmc]

Thats true, but like i said its all about gain/lose potential.

An example of that would be adding new monsters, foreach monster you add the amount of work for the next increase. Since you would have to animate with every existing possible combination.
So while at first adding a monster per 200 dollars may make sense, 5 monsters down the line wouldn't make sense, since the amount of work to add it in the game would have increased by 5 new animations set. Same applies, to a lesse extend, to everything else in the game.

But i will throw the ball here: If i pulled the trigger and made said game: 6 monsters focus in breading 20 or so traits. But at first without any animations or art, like i said i'm not artis.
You guys would support/you think i would get support?
What i'm thinking in doing is launching the game, the patreon and use the money from the patreon to contract freelancers to do the animations. But i don't think it would be viable, what you guys think?

[kingofbrocoli]

But i will throw the ball here: If i pulled the trigger and made said game: 6 monsters focus in breading 20 or so traits. But at first without any animations or art, like i said i'm not artis.
You guys would support/you think i would get support?
What i'm thinking in doing is launching the game, the patreon and use the money from the patreon to contract freelancers to do the animations. But i don't think it would be viable, what you guys think?

Just do it man. I mean what is the worst that could happen?
Im also working in a similar game concept except that I did not like the idea of launching a patreon for a game that does not exists yet.
What engine will you be using? Im using Game Maker and it is smooth af.
Word of advice tho. Beware when dealing with artists, I got fucked over by 3 diffent ones. And lost half my budget.

[true fmc]

I'm using unity.

And the deal is: i have no budget.
So very very unlikely to be able to fund art for the game without patreon support.3 world problems i guess.

And i'm even considering if i should make it about monsters, humanoids or straigh up humans.
I think the generally speaking the game would have a more smoth evolution using humans, but i'm not even sure if people would play it.

[kingofbrocoli]

I'm using unity.

Unity? That´s cool.

And the deal is: i have no budget.
So very very unlikely to be able to fund art for the game without patreon support.3 world problems i guess.

Don´t you use that 3th world shit on me man. I´m also from a 3rd world shit hole. After saving for a year and losing 400 usd. I literally had to sell my own blood to get it back. Just like the warrior poet Frisk taught us about determination. But you don´t wanna hear about my sob story.

And i'm even considering if i should make it about monsters, humanoids or straigh up humans.
I think the generally speaking the game would have a more smoth evolution using humans, but i'm not even sure if people would play it.

Yeah man I also had trouble deciding what characters I wanted to include in the demo so I get it, so many awesome options out there. In the end it is about the way YOU as a developer want to take the game.
Humans, Like the one Gorepete is doing?Corruption is a fairly popular concept so I would not worry about people not liking it, although it would certainly mean extra work.

[ValturNaa]

Well, humans are kind of the basis of our concept of sexy, so here's the tradeoff: the more inhuman the monsters, the easier it will be to come up with something. People have less demand on the appearance of dogs and snakes than other humans. But the more inhuman the monster, the fewer people who will find it sexy. Bestiality is definitely a thing but it's still considered pretty extreme. You should also look into the slave master projects here on LoK. It's not a breeding game but it's about mind-bending human girls into willing sex slaves. You could go for a similar concept but with slave breeding. And/or breeding human slaves with monsters like Season's Breeding. Personally I think a good middle ground is to use furries, which are human enough to be sexy but still inhuman enough to be mythical or magical monsters, and it'll be easy to pass them off as lower intelligence if that's the direction you want to go.

Hey Broccoli I gotta ask, have you figured out your program for animation? I know GMS has support for spine animations but I'm curious if you've made another system work.

[kingofbrocoli]

Hey Broccoli I gotta ask, have you figured out your program for animation? I know GMS has support for spine animations but I'm curious if you've made another system work.

Ask away man. I love talking about this.
That spine thingy certainly is amazing almost as in making animations out of static images. And for a fraction of the space too! The issue there being that you actually need to know what you are doing or you will end with subpar results.
But the option is there. Meaning that 100 animations can be possible.
I´ve been using sprite sheets for the characters and separated png´s for the animations but instead of adding them raw I stitch them alongside a compression algorithm and a LZMA2 for the archival so I don´t end with a 8gb game that requieres high specs and has barely any content.

[ValturNaa]

Ahh, interesting. Yeah, I can see where you'd need to zip those files. Bitmap animation files take up a ton of space, especially if there's any significant size to it (you know, like, above 64x64). But how did you get a compression algorithm in gamemaker? Is that a plugin extension or did you write the raw code in GML?