The SimBro Game (Brothel Sim)

[Lucky777]

Ace and Zobo raise some pretty cool points, 100% on target when it comes to games that are both financially supported and endlessly in development.
Even so, I don't quite agree with the conclusions they've reached.
Things can work out fine if there's just transparency between creator and financial supporters, I feel.

Even as a guy who's never MADE a game, I certainly see that for "finishing a game's development", having an "End state" is indispensable.
It's tautologously true, even; if you don't have an end state you can't reach that end state.
And if you can't reach the end state, then development can never "finish".

But to be honest, I don't dislike the concept of a game endlessly in development at all.
I don't... think it has any problems in and of itself.
There is at least one main problem, but I think it's an external one; a problem with creators and not with the creation model, if you'll pardon the semantics.

As to the model itself, players, after all, can define their own finishing conditions.
(For example, I tend to go with "Prosperous brothel with enough income to pay off the debt by 100 days" myself.
That can change, depending on what else I find interesting to do; when you can finally break Alice I'll throw that in as well.)

And on the developer's end, there is freedom both to incrementally expand the game's scope, AND to refine the already existing content.

Even limitations like "the size of the file" can be circumvented by, for example, ending one "episode" of the game and starting another.
One could let Players tick certain boxes so their starting state in the second "ep" is like their ending state in the previous one, preserving continuity.
I don't really see many negatives in this.

And when author interest in the product wanes, the author can say so, finish up what's on the plate at the moment, and put the project on indefinite hiatus.


As to the creator's possible tendencies, fair enough, the model can foster some bad ones.
Any tendency to keep building on a faulty foundation without fixing the technical basics... is PROBABLY one that'll lead to problems sooner or later.
It's hardly worse than its opposite, ie continuously re-coding content that has already been released, so the player never sees the playable content increase.

And putting the project on Hiatus WILL result in the project's income waning and/or ending.
So we come around to what I believe is the single biggest problem.
That's the temptation or tendency to be dishonest with one's financial supporters, and to keep milking them with empty promises.

All I can say is that any tendency for developers to take money (monthly or otherwise) without transparency or product-delivery strikes me as a regrettable one.

... But NONE of these tendencies is unavoidable, and I also don't think they're exclusively problems with the "financially supported endless development" model.
When it comes to falling prey to the tendencies, you can do it with a clearly defined end state.
You could build a fatally flawed finished game on faulty foundations, or never reach the clearly defined finished state because you're always re-covering past ground.
You could also just keep delaying releases, and postponing the "final release" for similar monthly milking results.
Hell, if you're not supported monthly, you could simply run out of funds, and the game - fatally buggy or not - could just never come out.

And likewise, in an endless development cycle, you can overcome the tendencies.
I'm sure you can walk the middle ground between frail foundations and constant re-treading.
I'm not a programmer or anything like one, so I don't know how hard it'd be, or if it'd be harder in an Open-ended scenario.
...But I'm sure you could do it.
And for damned sure you can be honest with your financial supporters.

Anyway, as to financially supported creators, I do think that reasonable transparency with one's financial supporters is an irreducible minimum.

I'll re-iterate that I haven't seen the tendency to milk supporters with purely empty promises in the past, for this particular game.
There were bugs etc, but the track record before June isn't something people should just look away from, either in its positive OR its negative aspects.
... Still, should such a tendency appear or continue, people should, as Zobo mentioned, recall the events of Breeding Season, and act prudently with their money.
After all, one shouldn't look away from what's been happening after June either.
And even fully allowing for IRL shenanigans, Zobo's parallels are potentially good cause for concern.

[AcetheSuperVillain]

Sure, I mean, I'm having an IRL rough patch myself, and I look at Patreon projects like SimBro and think, that's what I want for myself someday. I don't mean to point a finger and shout, "this is the end, and I saw it coming," but rather, hopefully this will be an eye-opening moment for them and everyone watching them. A moment of facing their mortality, so to speak. An end is inevitable. Plan ahead and make it a good one.

As a game design, I would classify SimBro as a sandbox game, and sandboxes can have a much broader ending condition than something like an RPG or Arcade game. Rather than the player reaching a certain quantifiable state, like earning $XXX, the game is actually over when the player feels like they've seen all there is to see. It might seem like this is a blank check to add content endlessly, but there's a balancing act to carry out. For example, if part of exploring the sandbox is about unlocking interdimensional characters, you need to make sure that the brothel business part of the game is still interesting or can be put on auto-pilot long enough to complete that part of the game. If part of the exploration is about starting a new game with the characters you've unlocked, then there needs to be a reasonable amount of fun in replaying the game from the beginning. Basically make sure that the players are not losing interest until they've reached almost all of the content you've put into the game. And in general, SimBro has been very good about this.

But you end up with this sort of paradox. If the game has no planned ending, but all things eventually have to come to an end, you're going to end up with the ending just happening suddenly while the project is in the middle of something. So if you're setting out to make that kind of endless game, I say you should make each update as though it's your last.

Not to get dark on you, but this is not so much a game design philosophy as a life philosophy. If you found out that you had one day left to live, how would that change what you do with yourself? What if it was a week, or a month or a year? Or what if it's not something so serious as death, but what if you found out that after one week, you won't be able to digest sugar, or you won't be able to play Flash games, or you won't be able to drive a car, or you won't be able use your private parts anymore. You'd try to stop and cherish those things, right? The reality of life is that things have to end, but people carry on as though ignoring time will make them immune to it. Game development should be the same way. Develop with the realization that your time to develop that game is limited and you don't know when or why you'll have to stop.

[porne]

Tick Tock update protocols seem to help, assuming you can't find a secondary team to help. One update fixed bugs, the next adds new features/advances the story and then bug fix. Doesn't always work for software engineering, but hey.

[Zobo]

Ace and Zobo raise some pretty cool points, 100% on target when it comes to games that are both financially supported and endlessly in development.
Even so, I don't quite agree with the conclusions they've reached.
Things can work out fine if there's just transparency between creator and financial supporters, I feel.

Funny, as I did not write out any conclusions in my post that I can see... Just pointed out the similarities and finished with a hypothesis.

Even as a guy who's never MADE a game, I certainly see that for "finishing a game's development", having an "End state" is indispensable.
It's tautologously true, even; if you don't have an end state you can't reach that end state.
And if you can't reach the end state, then development can never "finish".

I have never made a game either, but I have partaken in massive software development projects. You have requirements and goals and quality standards.
Things you must do, things you should do, how much bughunting you have to do. It's almost unheard of to have implemented everything planned, there's just "good enough"-state. Then, there is a release and then you usually don't stop - a smaller team keeps on fixing bugs and maybe further development of features.

But to be honest, I don't dislike the concept of a game endlessly in development at all.
I don't... think it has any problems in and of itself.
There is at least one main problem, but I think it's an external one; a problem with creators and not with the creation model, if you'll pardon the semantics.

I don't either. But just adding new stuff on top of old half-finished stuff isn't going to cut it.

And on the developer's end, there is freedom both to incrementally expand the game's scope, AND to refine the already existing content.

As to the creator's possible tendencies, fair enough, the model can foster some bad ones.
Any tendency to keep building on a faulty foundation without fixing the technical basics... is PROBABLY one that'll lead to problems sooner or later.
It's hardly worse than its opposite, ie continuously re-coding content that has already been released, so the player never sees the playable content increase.

...and there is freedom to ignore the pesky refinement and redesign stuff in favor of new cool things.

It's not just technical but also game balance and usability improvements you need to keep working on.

Let's put examples out.
The bar. Do you know how much money it makes? Do you know how many clients? Do you have any idea what stats the girls in different positions need in order to get better as strippers, bartender, private room girls? Can you determine if the bar has any clients in without going in the floor where the bar is and selecting either one of the poles or the bar and clicking enter?
As far as I can see, the only reason to have the bar is basically the new years event. Other than that, it has a few animations not used elsewhere.

Escort service The bartender in the bar that's in the city screen starts to get requests for escorts. The bartender lists requirements. Do you know if you have a girl that fits? Can you easily find them? IS the money worth the hassle? Are there any events, positive or negative in this?

Quality system The quality of service was introduced, where several stats combine to determine overall quality. In no place in game can you find out what stats make it up. The requests for quality rapidly become higher that can be achieved even with max stats.

I am not going to start on the UI, but trust me there are a lot of improvement opportunities there.

In fact, there is no aspect of the game that is finished. Nothing that could not be improved. Probably nothing that should not, either.

And when author interest in the product wanes, the author can say so, finish up what's on the plate at the moment, and put the project on indefinite hiatus.
...
And putting the project on Hiatus WILL result in the project's income waning and/or ending.
So we come around to what I believe is the single biggest problem.
That's the temptation or tendency to be dishonest with one's financial supporters, and to keep milking them with empty promises.

All I can say is that any tendency for developers to take money (monthly or otherwise) without transparency or product-delivery strikes me as a regrettable one.

There, though I picked the quotes from different parts, you basically contradict yourself AND point out the patreon problem#1. When you make money from this thing and this thing only you can not put it on hiatus. Problem #2 is that people want cool stuff and thus the demand drives the tendency to focus on new cool and visually appealing stuff rather than long-term improvements that are slower to do.

And likewise, in an endless development cycle, you can overcome the tendencies.
I'm sure you can walk the middle ground between frail foundations and constant re-treading.
I'm not a programmer or anything like one, so I don't know how hard it'd be, or if it'd be harder in an Open-ended scenario.
...But I'm sure you could do it.
And for damned sure you can be honest with your financial supporters.

Anyway, as to financially supported creators, I do think that reasonable transparency with one's financial supporters is an irreducible minimum.

There are different skillsets that are needed, and as a rule management and creativity are very seldom to be found in a single person. Also when you create something any criticism, even if constructive, can be felt as hostile or belittling of your work.

As for programming, agile software development methods such as Scrumm should be ideal for frequent release cycle like as with Patreon supported projects should have. It doesn't in itself of course determine what goals a sprint (that is, a cycle of development) has; I am unaware of any formal method for that.

I'll re-iterate that I haven't seen the tendency to milk supporters with purely empty promises in the past, for this particular game.
There were bugs etc, but the track record before June isn't something people should just look away from, either in its positive OR its negative aspects.
... Still, should such a tendency appear or continue, people should, as Zobo mentioned, recall the events of Breeding Season, and act prudently with their money.
After all, one shouldn't look away from what's been happening after June either.
And even fully allowing for IRL shenanigans, Zobo's parallels are potentially good cause for concern.

I think I made improvement suggestions way back, and they were ignored except for the "drag to office to get audience" suggestion, so I don't see the
track record in the same good light you do. The focus on new over finishing what's there is not new. Flashy over harder issues of UI improvement and balancing.

The base game is about paying your debts in 100 days, but you can easily go past 100 days and you won't have paid your debts, you won't even get an acknowlegement of having paid your debts let alone a in-house celebration orgy scene.

Cheers,
Z.

PS. A short reply to Ungawa

As it stands, I find Simbro to be a decent game but it really needed a lot of work. I think that Strumpets is a good alternative albeit different. But I do find that Simbro going belly up as Flash is going dead kind of telling... The main problem was that they indeed needed finishing conditions. But they also needed teams to complete them and that wasn't happening given the resources they could pull.

I followed Strumpets and liked it up until Sismicious took over the art side, and the new style killed my interest. I don't see it as an alternative anymore.

[Lucky777]

Funny, as I did not write out any conclusions in my post that I can see... Just pointed out the similarities and finished with a hypothesis.

Eh, Zobo, in your case it's really just the wondering "if getting patreon money kills these projects" that I'm disagreeing with.
I don't think extra income can kill off a spare-time project.
... Or any project.

In the context, I also saw a suggestion that all Financially supported open-ended development projects will end like Breeding season, which I disagree with.
That type of end is averted by transparency.
Even if that suggestion was only in my imagination, it's one of the "Conclusions" I was responding to.

Aside from that, the post was MAINLY concerned with what I interpreted as Ace's dislike of the financially supported open-ended development system.

---

As to there being freedom to ignore code-related refinement in the supported endless development model, sure there is.
My point is that it's there in a model that isn't open-ended as well; it's an author tendency as opposed to a problem with the development model.
And the way I see it, the lack of a pressing end-time gives you more freedom to work.

---

As to quality-of-life gameplay/balance issues, putting them on the back burner doesn't strike me as a problem unless your fanbase is clamouring for 'em.
And if it is so clamouring, you can count on your income dwindling if you continue to ignore their concerns.
In that way, giving your supporters the power to vote with their wallets, a supported endless development model allows that problem to cure itself.
...I mean, if a sufficiently large portion of fans sees it as a sufficiently serious problem.
*Shrugs*

---

There, though I picked the quotes from different parts, you basically contradict yourself AND point out the patreon problem#1. When you make money from this thing and this thing only you can not put it on hiatus.

I don't see a contradiction in what you highlighted.
I'm saying the "Financially Supported Endless development" concept isn't a bad one in itself, but acknowledging that it can potentially foster some undesirable tendencies. Number one is the tendency to rip off fans, and I'm saying transparency and honesty will be enough to stave that off.

I'm also highlighting the fact that in an open-ended system, honest authors can put the project on hiatus when passion wanes, instead of feeling chained to deadlines.
If an honest author has promised to deliver a finished product, he has that one more factor to worry about, as opposed to an author who has the freedom to place the project on hiatus whenever his interest wanes. So this is an advantage, to authors, of the open-ended system*.

Your point that if something is a fellow's ONLY source of income he probably needs to keep doing it until he can secure an alternative source of income is a good point.
But it isn't a problem with financially supported endless development; it's a problem with sources of income which is equally applicable to just about every source.
In other words, it would apply in a closed-ended system of development which was a person's only source of income just as much as in an open-ended one.

... In response to your point, I will clearly acknowledge that it's not ONLY a project's status as open-ended which frees an honest author from feeling chained to it, but also its status as extra, optional income.
... Dunno if that has anything to do with anything that was under discussion, though. Either way, no arguments from me there.

If you were wondering if "Changing these projects to the authors' only source of income" could kill the projects, well ... I guess it might kill some of 'em.

I've heard that turning a project from a hobby into a job tends to suck the fun from it, and I could see that happening.

Hell, financial stress ain't good for anybody, and living ENTIRELY on the generosity of your fans is probably going to be stressful indeed.
I dunno.
I'd consider "living only from patreon" to be PRETTY ill-advised, but... I mean I'm also no economist, so what do I know.

Spoiler (click to show/hide):

*...The corresponding point I made with respect to players isn't an ADVANTAGE to an open-ended development system, just a ... sort of lack of disadvantage.
As Ace suggested, it applies most to sandbox-type games, though.
Granted, if a game isn't a sandbox-type, I'd foresee it having a defined end-state to begin with, and so I'm not sure the open-ended system can be applied...

Problem #2 is that people want cool stuff and thus the demand drives the tendency to focus on new cool and visually appealing stuff rather than long-term improvements that are slower to do.

As to the point that IN such a system you'd be inclined to listen to fan demand, and thus have an extra incentive to supply new things at the cost of coding stability...
Yeah, you've got me there. Such a tendency might well be more incentivised in such a system than in a closed-ended development system in which you also don't have to take into account fan demand every month.

Granted, you CAN still over-promise to the fans and bite off more than you can chew even when you're not supported directly by the fans monthly.
No Man's Sky would seem to bear that out (and I'm both surprised and impressed they seem to still be working to EVENTUALLY deliver what they originally promised).
And transparency IS still the cure in a financially supported endless development model.
EG telling fans that every other month will be devoted to ensuring the code holds up SHOULD leave you with time and income enough to attend to it.
Alternatively, if you've coded yourself into a hole, specifically stating that you need time to fix it should result in sufficient continued support while you fix it.
You could then correct your programming focus going forward.
At least, I hope those'd work, since no-one, shortsighted or not, really wants to pay money and end up with an unplayable product.

Either way, I'd say the negative of being incentivised to listen to shortsighted demands is balanced by the positive of being incentivised to listen to the fans period.

[Ungawa]

I mean I'm also no economist, so what do I know.

I'm not either, but I play one on this website. :p

Anyway, I don't disagree with what you're saying Lucky and what you're saying certainly has merits, but there's also a few things I'd say need some nuance if I may chime in a bit.

In the context, I also saw a suggestion that all Financially supported open-ended development projects will end like Breeding season, which I disagree with.
That type of end is averted by transparency.

Bolstering this point, there's been certain devs who have been open and honest about transitions they've made which have given rise to full time development for them. Starship Inanna is the most recent example to my knowledge. He made a choice to go full time and pointed out what he could do to the community which supported him.

Nergal had this for a while, but closed off when his priorities shifted. Marune, when first starting out, was doing this within this post. When the transparency goes away, people can fill their head with their own theories, which ultimately create doubt. That's essentially what happens. It becomes rather difficult to get that trust back, so it's best not to lose it in the first place.

And the way I see it, the lack of a pressing end-time gives you more freedom to work.

There's a balancing act to new code vs old code... Of course, people want new stuff. But sometimes your systems can break down which causes you to have to turn into a plumber and roto-rooter the bad parts. You're still up against a deadline between fan expectations and reality, but you have to do something for their money...

I think that releasing on a "per build" model may be better here. It gives you more control and if something takes longer, then it can only stress someone's bank account when it's done instead of waiting for people to get hit and pissed on a monthly schedule.

The other parts are basically off this tangent so I'll just merge my thoughts as this:

You certainly want to have people happy with your game but bugs can come out of anywhere. If you're a smaller team, those bugs can be good features gone wild or a number of other things. Making it stable can be a pipe dream, and you'll need testers who are willing to do that. But you always want to have the larger ideas in mind so people can see a vision of what it is you want to have done. Larger goals allow for incredible flexibility in the open model days of adult gaming. That's what's seemingly missing right now from Simbro. If people can't get behind that vision, then the rest of the game will fall flat. As is evidenced by the issues that are plaguing it right now... But I digress.

[Lucky777]

Yeah, when bugs or something else are seriously fucking up the release schedule, it'd be best to go to "per release" format until things are back to normal, I think.

I hope Patreon's internal system allows you the freedom to do that without creating too many problems... maybe just a notification to patrons or something.
And most likely requiring confirmation from the patrons for any switch from "Per release" to "monthly" billing, so they don't get swindled on the sly.
...I mean, I could probably LOOK at the website and see how the system handles it, but I'm lazy : o

As you rightly indicated, when people are getting value for their money, and can see that, they're less likely to get pissed about spending that money.
And for you to voluntarily take a hit to income when product-delivery is being negatively affected is a way of showing goodwill.
Anyhow, here's hoping the next release hits it out of the park and these little hiccoughs don't spiral into a project that becomes worthy of distrust.

[Screwbucket]

Hey guys! Don't really post here on the forums much, but I thought I might as well throw in my 50 cents since I was actually a long time $1 supporter. Yeah, it wasn't much, but the vast majority of their supporters are $1 and they're the ones I suspect are going to start cutting the cord in droves if things carry on as they are.

Looking back, I think the point I started to see things start to go haywire with their development was around the time they introduced the bar...although honestly, the core of the problem probably began earlier than that. Just about every single update was just adding new content. No improvements to what was already there, just new stuff on top of new stuff. At first it was really cool...but knowing a little about software development, it became clear that what they were releasing wasn't really planned. It all came off as very scatter shot. It occurred to me that if you were going to be developing content for a game and frequently adding new content like they were, you'd start with sort of the basic default scenario and branch off from there. But what they were releasing was...kind of random when you get right down to it. It was like watching someone play Tetris and somehow managing to not complete a single line. One moment they're adding a new floor to the brothel, next they're adding a new character to the dimensional travel thing, next they're introducing weapons, next they're changing the entire way clothing works. It was all over the place. It was like they decided what they were going to do for the next build immediately after they finished another build and just kept on doing shit last minute. This is a HORRIBLE idea if you're going to be incrementally upgrading software like this because if everything is unplanned, trying to squeeze in new unplanned features can result in weird bugs and coding that closely resembles something held together with duct tape, super glue, and hope. I would not at ALL be surprised if the reason for the gigantic increase in bugs and delays was because they got rid of their old coder, their new coder came in, and found himself working on a complete and total mess.

The bugs came first, of course. At first they were manageable but soon bugs began to crop up that would force you to totally restart the game. Sometime the bugs were in such obvious and out in the open places you had to question if they play tested their own game at all prior to release...and if they did, if they released something they knew was broken but decided they wouldn't say anything and just fix it afterwards. After release bug patches became pretty common with the releases and, in hindsight, it's no wonder they began to struggle to keep to the same schedule. On top of trying to pump out new content that seemed to be totally unplanned, they were also fixing bugs from prior releases...which very well might have broken the new content they were working on forcing them to spend even longer on it.

I was really hopeful when they came out and admitted they fucked up. Made a whole post to their Patrons that they realized the delays and bugs weren't acceptable and they were going to take an additional month to sort their shit out. People were pissed, but were at the same time thankful they were honest, fessed up, and seemed to be making an effort to make sure things wouldn't get worse.

...anyone here a fan of the Captain Underpants book series? You know how sometimes the author would throw in an entire chapter that was basically just, "And then they did?" Yeah, well, that's basically what happened. I don't recall exactly how many builds down the line it took, but it didn't take long for them to fall into old habits. The delays started up again, the horrible bugs started to crop up, and then the straw that broke the camels back for many. The build they were working on was so buggy, so unready, even they couldn't release it early. So they just released the old build with a few new things added in to fill in the monthly update. Pretty much went downhill from there. Most recently the delays have gotten absolutely insane. Their own patrons were commenting that they should stop giving us countdowns and just set us up for disappointment. Even as the delays were getting worse, they were still talking about implementing new content. They had started to sort of build off of the content that was already there after the apology, but most recently they've again just been trying to shove in new mechanics and features nobody asked for. Their Patreon comment sections are REALLY clear. Nobody is asking for this. Nobody is demanding they pump out new mechanics and features every single month when there's so much older content that needs finishing or just outright fixing.

I canceled my subscription after one of their more recent builds was delayed three times. As much as I enjoyed Simbro, it's getting to the point where it felt like even giving them a dollar was just insulting to a large number of other projects that could use support. I mean, shit, there are games being developed in 3D using unity by one man teams with more consistent updates and stable builds than what Simbro has been putting up...which is downright astonishing considering this project was once the 3rd (now the 4th) most supported NSFW game on Patreon and at its peak was making over $15,000 a month (now just under 11k)! Things are so bad, if you look at the statistics of their earnings (https://graphtreon.com/creator/simbro) you can actually pinpoint the exact month people began to lose their patience and either pulled their support or lowered their sub down to $1. I think the only reason they haven't lost more is because you can get Patron access to their game with just a dollar...which is about as much many of their supporters are now willing to pay to justify any sort of investment.

...I'm not sure that will last, though.

[HugelDude]

Hey guys! Don't really post here on the forums much, but I thought I might as well throw in my 50 cents since I was actually a long time $1 supporter. Yeah, it wasn't much, but the vast majority of their supporters are $1 and they're the ones I suspect are going to start cutting the cord in droves if things carry on as they are.

Looking back, I think the point I started to see things start to go haywire with their development was around the time they introduced the bar...although honestly, the core of the problem probably began earlier than that. Just about every single update was just adding new content. No improvements to what was already there, just new stuff on top of new stuff. At first it was really cool...but knowing a little about software development, it became clear that what they were releasing wasn't really planned. It all came off as very scatter shot. It occurred to me that if you were going to be developing content for a game and frequently adding new content like they were, you'd start with sort of the basic default scenario and branch off from there. But what they were releasing was...kind of random when you get right down to it. It was like watching someone play Tetris and somehow managing to not complete a single line. One moment they're adding a new floor to the brothel, next they're adding a new character to the dimensional travel thing, next they're introducing weapons, next they're changing the entire way clothing works. It was all over the place. It was like they decided what they were going to do for the next build immediately after they finished another build and just kept on doing shit last minute. This is a HORRIBLE idea if you're going to be incrementally upgrading software like this because if everything is unplanned, trying to squeeze in new unplanned features can result in weird bugs and coding that closely resembles something held together with duct tape, super glue, and hope. I would not at ALL be surprised if the reason for the gigantic increase in bugs and delays was because they got rid of their old coder, their new coder came in, and found himself working on a complete and total mess.

The bugs came first, of course. At first they were manageable but soon bugs began to crop up that would force you to totally restart the game. Sometime the bugs were in such obvious and out in the open places you had to question if they play tested their own game at all prior to release...and if they did, if they released something they knew was broken but decided they wouldn't say anything and just fix it afterwards. After release bug patches became pretty common with the releases and, in hindsight, it's no wonder they began to struggle to keep to the same schedule. On top of trying to pump out new content that seemed to be totally unplanned, they were also fixing bugs from prior releases...which very well might have broken the new content they were working on forcing them to spend even longer on it.

I was really hopeful when they came out and admitted they fucked up. Made a whole post to their Patrons that they realized the delays and bugs weren't acceptable and they were going to take an additional month to sort their shit out. People were pissed, but were at the same time thankful they were honest, fessed up, and seemed to be making an effort to make sure things wouldn't get worse.

...anyone here a fan of the Captain Underpants book series? You know how sometimes the author would throw in an entire chapter that was basically just, "And then they did?" Yeah, well, that's basically what happened. I don't recall exactly how many builds down the line it took, but it didn't take long for them to fall into old habits. The delays started up again, the horrible bugs started to crop up, and then the straw that broke the camels back for many. The build they were working on was so buggy, so unready, even they couldn't release it early. So they just released the old build with a few new things added in to fill in the monthly update. Pretty much went downhill from there. Most recently the delays have gotten absolutely insane. Their own patrons were commenting that they should stop giving us countdowns and just set us up for disappointment. Even as the delays were getting worse, they were still talking about implementing new content. They had started to sort of build off of the content that was already there after the apology, but most recently they've again just been trying to shove in new mechanics and features nobody asked for. Their Patreon comment sections are REALLY clear. Nobody is asking for this. Nobody is demanding they pump out new mechanics and features every single month when there's so much older content that needs finishing or just outright fixing.

I canceled my subscription after one of their more recent builds was delayed three times. As much as I enjoyed Simbro, it's getting to the point where it felt like even giving them a dollar was just insulting to a large number of other projects that could use support. I mean, shit, there are games being developed in 3D using unity by one man teams with more consistent updates and stable builds than what Simbro has been putting up...which is downright astonishing considering this project was once the 3rd (now the 4th) most supported NSFW game on Patreon and at its peak was making over $15,000 a month (now just under 11k)! Things are so bad, if you look at the statistics of their earnings (https://graphtreon.com/creator/simbro) you can actually pinpoint the exact month people began to lose their patience and either pulled their support or lowered their sub down to $1. I think the only reason they haven't lost more is because you can get Patron access to their game with just a dollar...which is about as much many of their supporters are now willing to pay to justify any sort of investment.

...I'm not sure that will last, though.

It sucks because this game like Breeding Season has a tone of potential and it's all just going to be thrown out the window due to zero transparency between developers and fans. One team that does this wonderfully is the developers of Summertime Saga, they have progress bars to show how far along the code, audio, art and posing is for the next update and also do streams of them drawing the art for the game (without any spoiler content of course).

If you're looking for a game to play check Summertime Saga out, it's pretty great.

[c0rn101]

It sucks because this game like Breeding Season has a tone of potential and it's all just going to be thrown out the window due to zero transparency between developers and fans.

Has nothing to do with transparency.

Everyone with just a tiny bit of programming experience can see that this project isn't being attended by a person with the needed programming skills / or they do not want to work on their own project anymore.
The fact that the game is filled with bugs, when the game itself (to the lastest update) could be coded in no time, is just insulting.

[Screwbucket]

Everyone with just a tiny bit of programming experience can see that this project isn't being attended by a person with the needed programming skills / or they do not want to work on their own project anymore.

See the entirety of my post. XD

[Ungawa]

I'm gonna give it a few days, but I'm about to give an autopsy of this game and what it did right, wrong, and otherwise to at least give other people an understanding of what devs do when a project blows up.

The countdown has ended, the programming can't be done (it seems), and overall, the work load has gotten worse. It's really, unfortunate, but it seems to be the end of Simbro, at least by these two.

Does anyone want to read a long missive on the game since it appears to be that the game is bound to be buggy or hold out hope that this last build will be successful in something?

[AcetheSuperVillain]

Never say never. Having a rough patch now doesn't mean the game is permanently dead. Even if they stop working on it completely, there's always the chance that they'll pick it up again in the future, even years later maybe.

[Lucky777]

Well Ungawa, even if this build DOES come out, and even if it blows all previous ones out of the water, I'm still interested in seeing what you have to say.

I can't say I'm exactly sanguine that the build WILL come out, though.

"Breaking one last promise, in that we didn't even actually halt the countdown when we said it was halted, and then going silent"... doesn't inspire confidence.

[Stevenator]

I hope this game doesn't die exactly since the pursuit of bedding Alice has been something I've really enjoyed compared to...well just about any aspect of a porn game I've played lately.

But I do hope they take a significant hit from this and improve how they work. It's beyond ridiculous. Too many promises, too many failures.

They need to polish what they already have while maybe setting up/acquiring a new engine if the current one is a problem, they definitely have the money and they should definitely feel obligated to invest in the project.

That said, they dropped form 11k to 9k I believe...but that's only from last month. Patreon updates that counter every month so at the end of this one they could have dropped extremely low, how low is impossible to tell but it's clear that basically nobody is happy about this.


I think their best option would be to dick tease us with Alice, have her say she's "Ready" for you know what and then do an "Episode 2" as someone mentioned(sorry, I barely post here so I'm not familiar with...anyone)
And either use a new engine or just a refresher for Episode 2.
They would take a hit there but if they produced some solid work they'd bring it back. Great way to take a step back and review everything, I'm no genius but something tells me there's issues with management in this project.

I think that's a sound way forward honestly, as it stands now the story is...pretty easy to complete, paying off your debts doesn't take all that long in what would be deemed "Episode 1" so some other event could crop up in Episode 2...MORE DEBT.


I wish more developers would consider handing a game over to other people when they've lost passion for it, maybe that hasn't happened here but in general too many people just go "screw it" and abandon the project which is a shame if they're particularly talented and especially a shame for those who forked out tons of money to support them.

[Teron]

It sucks because this game like Breeding Season has a tone of potential and it's all just going to be thrown out the window due to zero transparency between developers and fans. One team that does this wonderfully is the developers of Summertime Saga, they have progress bars to show how far along the code, audio, art and posing is for the next update and also do streams of them drawing the art for the game (without any spoiler content of course).

If you're looking for a game to play check Summertime Saga out, it's pretty great.

Thanks for mentioning Summertime Saga, checked it out and really enjoyed it. Surprisingly so, didn't think I'd enjoy the artwork/animations.

[Ungawa]

I've been looking at some other games and seeing very similar issues and problems, Stevenator. So I'll probably use this game as a basis for a larger discussion on things to avoid in the adult gaming community.

But I'll be respectful and post it in Discussion or General so that this isn't spearheaded by sharp criticism here. As it stands, Simbro updated their Patreon post. Doesn't change that they're getting a backlash of anger but I'll try to explain some of the issues that annoy a community in a more general way.

This is kind of one of the reasons I waited. I didn't want to come off as sharply critical without giving them a chance. So when I post my criticisms elsewhere, I'd suggest people look for what developers can do to avoid some of the pitfalls I've seen in adult gaming in general.

I'll now take you back to your regularly scheduled Simbro programming...

[Stevenator]

I'll now take you back to your regularly scheduled Simbro programming...

I'm going to be a dick just because that's a perfect setup.

There ain't any regular schedule to this damn game! Haha. Shower me with dollar.


Anyway yeah I didn't expect it to just die right here and now but I don't have immense faith it won't collapse in future. If they're having tech issues now they should switch to a new engine but, the question is will they or will they attempt to keep bumming along to the point where it's too late to do that?
Patreon can be pretty touchy, if they disappeared for like 2-3 months to switch engines the project would probably die in that time.
Conversely if they don't switch, the tech issues will probably leave the game stranded at v.4.5 or whatever, in a still unfinished state.

Maybe they'd keep at it but it would be so much easier to just pack it in and leave and...well history shows how often that happens, sadly.


In any case I hope they come clean and just tell people what's going on, it'd help their case a lot if people knew them and could trust that they'll keep going.

[WonderGamer]

At least he does periodic updates, Malise and the Machine hasn't had a playable update in over a year & those of us who have paid into it (myself included) are getting cross over it (I seriously doubt he's going to keep his promise to give a copy to those who paid at least $20 into it)... The Inner-Circle tier at least was getting regular process updates, but there hadn't been a playable update since 10/17/2016, even for them...

EDIT: And now when I go to look at Eromancer's page (developer page for M&tM), it states that the page is currently under Patreon review... Bah! That's going to be another project biting the dust...

[Dongman]

yea that fucking game had 1 PUBLIC UPDATE
that's it
wwhhbhbghbskg?