Despair Labyrinth (RPG) Latest Release: Ver.0.09 (4/18/12)

[SpectralTime]

I think Whirlwind Slash just strikes three times randomly. Like the X-man's Symphony of Destruction (another musical reference? Hee hee.).

Balance wise... Much as I love Thyme, nerfing her is probably the only way you're getting Lanie up to her level. Alternatively, you could give Lanie all the damage over time status effects, and Thyme all the debuffs.

Irine is fine. She's got most of the magical muscle of Lanie, most of Thyme's "screw you" stunlocks, and unlike either of them, can stack some nice armor between her buffs and her ability to wear sturdier clothing.

Sairyn was excellent post-buff, though I wouldn't mind even better damage progression, something to give you a reason to pick her over, say, Emilia. Also, a lack of bosses going "Herpaderp, no skills for you," would be nice. On that note, another direction to take the remake would be to give her a big mana pool and cheap skills to turn her into some kind of "melee caster."

Cesca... I was actually planning to see her reaction to the Gwyn scene tonight. I'll get back to you on that.

Also... daggome, Lucky. I don't know what to say. It kinda bothered me too that Wolfram's a part of the Syndicate if he has any ethics at all, but I don't really see why he's drawing so much hate from you. I mean, sure, his scene was a little annoying if you don't have a special one, but he's hardly the only anti-rape party member in the game.

That said, I agree. No need to axe the game over. You DID give us ample warning with some "save right here" dialogue.

[ShadowFax]

As far as the Game Over thing... yeah, I'll most likely modify the bandit foursome scene as required, but will just have to make a branch and an alternate Gwyn scenario where the two of you are in the same place after getting raped and the four men already left. After all, it's not the first time a bandit in this game has fucked you and just left if you lost to them, so I don't think that'll be any serious break to continuity.

Whoa whoa whoa!!! But that Game over Scene was AWESOME!? The final scene where the PC and Elise are laying there... total awesomeness?

You can't just remove game over scenes from a game. Anyone ever play Fable? RIDICULOUSLY easy. I'll admit that loss of purity may or may not make up for a game over IF you are intent on keeping your purity high, it's a REWARD if you aren't. As a game mechanic it fails to tell the gamer to remember that there are consequences to simply not trying, which with the addition of the "surrender" option, could become to great an incentive. Not to mention what it does to the overall tone and stakes of the game. These characters are in a dangerous place. It doesn't feel dangerous if there is no tension and tension can't be built if your characters are immortal. Removing game over scenes would make tension all but non-existent, you already HAVE limited them to a great extent and I'd say the overall balance is flawless. For people who don't like them... consider that you have gone through something like 100+ fights so far in this game, and only received a game over for three and a half enemy types. I'd say those are nice odds.

[AbysmalTears]

FFS -_- just make a choice branch option during rape scene

Choice1) (forshadowing of giving in)

Choice2) I will never surrender! (branches to continuation)

[Lucky777]

FFS -_- just make a choice branch option during rape scene

Choice1) (forshadowing of giving in)

Choice2) I will never surrender! (branches to continuation)

Could you elaborate a bit on that, Abysmal? I was afraid that Shadowfax had finally brought up a point where there would be no way to keep multiple groups happy, and Kita would have to make a pretty srs choice, since the interests:

"Yo, I want the characters to get the shit fucked out of them, and if the characters themselves want to resist, I want that resistance BROKEN" and

"Yo, if the characters lose a fight, I want there to occasionally be a game over specifically as punishment (as opposed to specifically as fetish fuel,) so that peeps cannot freely and without 'tension' hit the 'Submit' button in the game even if they want the outcome it would lead to and want to see the plot continue from there - and also the game over scene already implemented is pretty awesome, dun' take it out" were irreconcilable.

That second quote might not be the opposed interest in fact, though I think it is. I don't actually have Shadowfax's position properly straight in my head, so I can't summarise it flawlessly.

But what was that you say?

It seems to me to hold a slight glimmer of a way out... though I ain't sure.

[ZeroEXE.ZX17]

Could you elaborate a bit on that, Abysmal? I was afraid that Shadowfax had finally brought up a point where there would be no way to keep multiple groups happy, and Kita would have to make a pretty srs choice, since the interests:

"Yo, I want the characters to get the shit fucked out of them, and if the characters themselves want to resist, I want that resistance BROKEN" and

"Yo, if the characters lose a fight, I want there to occasionally be a game over specifically as punishment (as opposed to specifically as fetish fuel,) so that peeps cannot freely and without 'tension' hit the 'Submit' button in the game even if they want the outcome it would lead to and want to see the plot continue from there - and also the game over scene already implemented is pretty awesome, dun' take it out" were irreconcilable.

That second quote might not be the opposed interest in fact, though I think it is. I don't actually have Shadowfax's position properly straight in my head, so I can't summarise it flawlessly.

But what was that you say?

It seems to me to hold a slight glimmer of a way out... though I ain't sure.

i think this falls on "can't please everyone" right lucky? lol

[Lucky777]

i think this falls on "can't please everyone" right lucky? lol

Maybe. I... actually am not completely sure as yet. If Shadowfax re-iterates, then I can say one way or another.

I don't know if the objection is primarily "I want that scene in the game,also Game over Scenes are good for fetish reasons" or "I want losses to result in game overs more often, for the sake of punishment, and also as a way of influencing the atmosphere of the game/irritating the player so as to make him want to win battles."

If the former, there are ways around that.

Abysmal's suggestion might be one such way, though again I'm not sure what that suggestion was PRECISELY. Sounds interesting though. Basically, if the objection is fetish based, a simple choice of whether to see the scene or not concludes the matter.

If the latter, I don't know. That one seems like a concrete impasse, that is going to result in a choice that leaves some cold, no matter what.
Games either proceed in plot, or end.
Wanting them to do one is irreconcilable with wanting them to do the other.

Now, there's no doubt that Ayra provides a clear and eloquent example of how this game makes players of one alignment want to win.

When the syndicate path comes along and losses in battle might result in the deaths or imprisonments of syndicate members, or the theft of hard-won kidnapped sex slaves, or the destruction of financial investments like the grow-op, then I will provide a similar example for the other alignment. Naturally, seeing the plot progress in a way you don't want it to progress is a VIGOUROUS incentive.

But if Shadowfax is saying that "Not just 'PLOT OCCURENCES' must be the incentive to win, but rather 'the desire to even keep playing at all, so as to see more of the game' must be the incentive", then that's that.
Impasse, decision time. And my limited intelligence doesn't see an alternative that will please proponents of both. It's a fundamental game design decision.

[ShadowFax]

I'm not suggesting that Game overs need to occur more frequently, just that there is already a good balance between game overs and continuations. I don't see any reason for those scenes that currently end in 'Game over' to be changed. There are plenty of scenes to come in the future, most of which will not end in game over, and a few most certainly that will, but to go back through and start removing those that are already there, both because by now those game over screens are all pieces that some people like, and because you don't want your game to be 'to easy' on any front.

You want there to be an element of tension. Let's face it. Four guys corning a girl who's trying to kill her way to the princes and a SECOND woman who comes with that same intent to rescue the first intruder, aren't going to simply screw them and walk away. Some instances need game overs. Others do not. From a designers standpoint, as KITA is as much making a game and telling a story and not ONLY making a fapping tool (as great and awesome a fapping tool as ever there was though it may be). The game has a certain atmosphere, and it isn't silly, and expecting four enemy guards to simply 'rape and run' from two potential risks to thier syndicate is unrealistic, and hence why they would be a 'game over' screen.

[Lucky777]

Let's face it. Four guys corning a girl who's trying to kill her way to the princes and a SECOND woman who comes with that same intent to rescue the first intruder, aren't going to simply screw them and walk away. Some instances need game overs. Others do not. From a designers standpoint, as KITA is as much making a game and telling a story and not ONLY making a fapping tool (as great and awesome a fapping tool as ever there was though it may be). The game has a certain atmosphere, and it isn't silly,

A fine and legitimate point, and let me never be taken as contradicting that.

There must be some kind of plot justification one way or the other. If that is all you're saying, then I understand you, and we are actually not opposed after all. Something of a relief.

However

It's not impossible for there to be a plot justification for the game continuing from that scene.

P'raps the bandits stood aside as Xanrud entered to take what'sherface, either because they were finished with their business, or as a sign of deference to their boss. P'raps the next scene followed as it did in the win scenario: Dude walks off with what'sherface and tells his henchmen to do as they will with you, and follow him later.

I'm not actually going to try to argue plot ad infinitum, because there's little to be gained down that road. The main reason I have for thinking of this game over screen as temporary is honestly just that it was intended to be that way from the beginning. (Or more accurately, it was 'somewhat more likely to be temporary than to be permanent', I believe. And surely, intentions can change. If Kitamaru+ his plot advisors do not find a legitimate reason for a game over NOT following a certain scene, then by all means, follow it must. And better for the game that it does, too.)

but to go back through and start removing those that are already there, both because by now those game over screens are all pieces that some people like, and because you don't want your game to be 'to easy' on any front.

As to them already being established, again a fine point. But to make them optional would dispense with the difficulty there. It WOULD cheapen the "inevitable loss" feeling, though, so I'm all for them being completely unavoidable upon certain losses, just as long as there is forewarning.

Indeed, the only scene I voted to change was the one I believed was due to be changed from the beginning.

The "too easy" thing, though, I wonder about.

For there to be no challenge in the game is DEFINITELY undesirable. A collection of scenes for fapping is great, as is such a collection linked by story elements, but the whole "reward some work" element is a pleasant thing as well. If every boss was a oneshot kill, for example, there'd be no point including them in the first place.
If losing and winning changed LITERALLY nothing, similarly, the "battle" aspect would become irrelevant and otiose. It'd be boring, not fun. Not fulfilling. No use.

Yet, for the challenge to be enforced by game overs as opposed to plot consequences does not strike me as being necessarily better. Rather, I like it the other way around.
That "other way around" is more work than putting up one game over screen for sure, however, and think not that I delude myself about that simple fact.
Even something as simple as "if the grow-op gets torched, you don't get the option for that one drug scene down the road in the game" would take more coding and effort than just tossing up a game over screen, I think.
If KITA's up for that sort of thing though, then extra great.

[KITAmaru]

...Goddammit, just when I was workin' on changin' this. LOL. Uhh... well, actually, where I am right now, I can still do it either way (all I have to do to change it back is just put 'Game Over' at the end of the foursome-raep'd scene's Common Event... which I just did atm).

Well... I don't MIND actually making it not a Game Over if enough people hate Game Overs that much, but I have two primary incentives for keeping it as is, instead of continuing to change this:
1.) Less work for me. LOL. Okay, so maybe that isn't a valid excuse, but more importantly...
2.) The 'effect' of Gwyn and the character's discussion has to be changed completely. 'Darn, we both got raped but... thanks for being there to get raped next to me? Let's... make out or something?' For some reason I feel as if the campfire scene will be... really lame, and it'll take a lot of the 'you saved me' aspect of the Gwyn romance out, so... yeah. Hm.

Anyway, I'll hear you out before making any drastic changes. Meanwhile, I'll try and figure out what to do regarding the timer I plan to put in and so on!
EDIT:
Alright, I'll mull it over. I can see the case from both ends but I think I'll work at something arguably more productive in terms of storyline progress by working on the case for Gwyn rescued.

[Lucky777]

It's not that I hate game overs, but I'd say the scene could run all the same.

The "you saved me" aspect would be completely gone, for you'd have saved her from nothing. It'd be more "Ah, damnit. Thanks for trying, though."

[ZeroEXE.ZX17]

...Goddammit, just when I was workin' on changin' this. LOL. Uhh... well, actually, where I am right now, I can still do it either way (all I have to do to change it back is just put 'Game Over' at the end of the foursome-raep'd scene's Common Event... which I just did atm).

Well... I don't MIND actually making it not a Game Over if enough people hate Game Overs that much, but I have two primary incentives for keeping it as is, instead of continuing to change this:
1.) Less work for me. LOL. Okay, so maybe that isn't a valid excuse, but more importantly...
2.) The 'effect' of Gwyn and the character's discussion has to be changed completely. 'Darn, we both got raped but... thanks for being there to get raped next to me? Let's... make out or something?' For some reason I feel as if the campfire scene will be... really lame, and it'll take a lot of the 'you saved me' aspect of the Gwyn romance out, so... yeah. Hm.

Anyway, I'll hear you out before making any drastic changes. Meanwhile, I'll try and figure out what to do regarding the timer I plan to put in and so on!
EDIT:
Alright, I'll mull it over. I can see the case from both ends but I think I'll work at something arguably more productive in terms of storyline progress by working on the case for Gwyn rescued.

personally i would rather have the "game over" but thats just me and for the story the game over at the foursome makes more sence bu i can see how it would make sence with it beig a "no game over" as well, but i think would be a god idea is a little text warning before you fight the boss, like "as you go further in in, you sence something dangerous ahead" that way people know it's a "game over if they lose that fight

[ZeroEXE.ZX17]

It's not that I hate game overs, but I'd say the scene could run all the same.

The "you saved me" aspect would be completely gone, for you'd have saved her from nothing. It'd be more "Ah, damnit. Thanks for trying, though."

i think if that part wasn't a game over i think it would work like they would comfort each other of what happend, like i said to KITA i like it better as a game over but i can see what would happend if it wasn't

[ShadowFax]

Yet, for the challenge to be enforced by game overs as opposed to plot consequences does not strike me as being necessarily better. Rather, I like it the other way around.

In some cases this CAN work. The first boss sends you to the chambers if you lose. That's incentive enough to win if you want to keep your purity high, (and no incentive at all if you don't care or want your purity low) but it DOES work as incentive. This isn't always possible though, and what you DON'T want is for it to become unrealistic to an extreme. (For instance, If It were me making the game I'd make a second failure to the boss man who sent you to the chambers to result in a game over cause like xD 'Hey your back? Well let's make sure that doesn't happen again little missy!')

[Lucky777]

Well I'm damn glad it ain't you making the game, then.

Don't get me wrong, you have a good point.

It's even a point I could agree with.

Trouble is... I think it's a FATALLY good point. Like, "A point in the medula oblongata."

Why would a bandit think someone in full plate armour (full plate leotard) with a broadsword was a slave in the first place? Why would they give 'em back their weapons or leave them by the chambers prison entrance? Why would they stick their cock in a hole full of fucking teeth? How would they "pull off some armour" from a chick in armour meant to resist BLADES, let alone mere open hands? Why would they not just shoot you from far away with bows and arrows as soon as you killed a single one of them?

Maybe there's a plot justification down the road. Maybe not.

Ah ... the plot should make sense. It should. I thought I was literally 100% on board with that before I gave the OTHER scenes a little bit of thought. As it turns out though, my priorities were never in question. Plot making sense is secondary... even tertiary, as far as I am concerned, even though I DO love sensible plot events and continuity.

See, if it made the max possible amount of sense, I don't think this game would go down as it does right now.

And I like how it is now, I gotta say. Despite my support of the plot making sense, if the plot ever has to fucking bite it for fappings freedom to prevail, I know which side I come down on after all, without a doubt.

Heh heh. In the end, I'm not really that surprised at myself.

[ShadowFax]

Well I'm damn glad it ain't you making the game, then.

Don't get me wrong, you have a good point.

It's even a point I agree with.

Trouble is... I think it's a FATALLY good point. Like, "A point in the medula oblongata."

Why would a bandit think someone in full plate armour (full plate leotard) with a broadsword was a slave in the first place? Why would they give 'em back their weapons or leave them by the chambers prison entrance? Why would they stick their cock in a hole full of fucking teeth? How would they "pull off some armour" from a chick in armour meant to resist BLADES, let alone mere open hands?

Maybe there's a plot justification down the road. Maybe not.

Ah ... the plot should make sense. It should. I thought I was literally 100% on board with that before I gave the OTHER scenes a little bit of thought. As it turns out though, my priorities were never in question. Plot making sense is secondary... even tertiary, as far as I am concerned, even though I DO love sensible plot events and continuity.

See, if it made the max possible amount of sense, I don't think this game would go down as it does right now.

And I like how it is now, gotta say. Despite my support of the plot making sense, if the plot ever has to fucking bite it for fappings freedom to prevail, I know which side I come down on after all, without a doubt.

Heh heh. In the end, I'm not surprised at myself.

So far the plot and atmosphere have been very consistent in theme and sensibility. I do, however, think that a good story and great game mechanics are what separate a simple Japanese H-Game from something truly special, which I definitely think Kita has something special here, and something that if it stays on course will be specifically memorable, and could go down in the H-Game hall of fame as opposed to 'that game I played last week'

[Lucky777]

Yeah.

Yeah, it will. It'll go down in the hall of fame and it deserves to, no doubt.

I just wonder about the absolutes of logic in the plot, suddenly.

Maybe he's got a plan.

Fingers crossed.

[KITAmaru]

Heh, I think it's just a hole I dug for myself, honestly, having GOR be a concept of this game, especially when it's my first project. When I look at other H-games made with the same program and utilizing a similar battle system, most Game Overs are just that... with H-scenes as rewards (as in Harem) or just all different Game Overs accompanied with scenes (like with Monster Girls Unlimited).

This would otherwise make the game considerably easier to program for, and I honestly can't think of many other H-RPG's that allow you to constantly get raped following the traditional battle style without worrying about a Game Over. Violated Heroine does it well, but obviously that's an ongoing project that is constantly being worked on by a large amount of people, not one guy who barely knows a damn thing about VX (as in, me).

Sigh, in other news, someone else brought up the fair point that you should be able to just say okay to the bandit and tell Wolfram to basically screw off, provided your Purity is at the right level (looks like you're not the only one Lucky!). I'm going to have to take a deep breath, step back and look at what I want to do with this game.

I think what I'll do is finish the Gwyn rescue and the party system (which will be 0.07 for the most part), adding a couple more H-scenes of course in the process, and then... go back and fix the Wolfram and Gwyn scenes to be 'suitable' for those who've already turned their characters into whores.


Ya know, no matter what I do, there's always going to be a logic loophole. After all, to this day we still have idiots arguing over whether or not Greedo shot first and its moral implications to the fucking Star Wars series. That being said, if I HAD to choose between logic and hentai in this game, logic is going out the fucking window. After all, I'm sure most people fap to this game instead of trying to figure out whether or not certain things make sense. Luckily for me, an obscure, indie H-game like this which I will never make a penny for will also never come under the same scrutiny that a cultural icon like Star Wars does.

However, I'm looking to apply JUST ENOUGH LOGIC to make the storyline flow from a practical and large-scale aspect.
I'm not gonna please EVERYONE, as I know I can't, but I'll at least try to please most. Kinda like someone with 60 Purity.

I originally started but obviously by making it, I've opened up a whole can of worms. Needless to say, I'm determined to keep going no matter how much certain aspects might bother some people, but I just need to focus on the small things first. If they can't accept that I might not get things done right away, they should remember that I'm one guy, going to work and school at the same time while doing this, and that they don't have to play it if the minor bugs bother them so much.

I realize that the overall potential of the game overshadows what it currently is. If it didn't have any potential in terms of both storyline and design, then I wouldn't be getting all these requests for this and that, yeah? But I will be living up to that little by little, as great things don't happen overnight of course.

After all, you guys are pretty loyal--think to all the problems I had in 0.3. 0.4. Even 0.5. Are ALL of those fixed? No. Are many of them? Yeah! I'd hope so.

I don't have paying customers here, I have a willing audience for which I am grateful, and the primary reason I'm actually saying 'yes' to some requests is because I TOO, think the ideas are good.

I think this quote sums up my motivation regarding this game.
'The man who moves a mountain begins by carrying small stones.'

[Lucky777]

That being said, if I HAD to choose between logic and hentai in this game, logic is going out the fucking window. After all, I'm sure most people fap to this game instead of trying to figure out whether or not certain things make sense.

You da man.

And as for changing the plot to represent peeps who have already corrected their characters, you MORE da man.

Just enough sense is good enough for me, sir. I had realised that from the time I made the post above this one, and I will never have any regrets about that.

And yeah, FUCK Wolfram. Hatesexin' that guy with a blade.

[KITAmaru]

I'm probably going to correct existing scenes only ONE little bit at a time, every other patch or so. Why? Because I'm also an avid H-game player who has kept up with certain updates in other H-RPG's, and quite frankly, when there's a patch that ONLY involves bugfixes or 'new storyline options' over shit I've already done, even I tend to think... "...Meh. Where's the new stuff?" So yeah, heh.

[Lucky777]

For there to be no challenge in the game is DEFINITELY undesirable.

Ah, son of a bitch. Today's the day of "realising you said something that isn't quite exactly what you wanted to say" for me, it looks like.

Actually, what I said up there is only half true.

If this were a game where you could literally lose every single fight on every single path, syndicate, Elynsor, and otherwise, and still see most of the plot events of the game, I'd entirely like that.

"No rewards for no effort"? You know what? Fuck that shit. Fuck it hard. Just watch the story as it plays out, with scenes to boot. I'm good with a situation like that.

HOWEVER

If there ever came a time in the plot that you wanted to grind up and have a fighting impact in one direction or the other, you could do that too.

That's what I'm thinking would be the ideal sort of game, from my own perspective.

And in that game, the fights, if you chose to take them on, would be challenging. They wouldn't be cakewalks. Their outcomes would change things, not "change literally nothing", but there would still be h scenes no matter what. Perhaps different ones, and perhaps with different characters. Eh. But that's what I meant by "for there to be no challenge in the game is undesirable." I was saying that if even the OPTION to challenge your skills didn't exist, I'd want it put in.

Anyway, this is actually not a recommendation. This is just me correcting my earlier self, who got things half-right and half wrong.
Not my best day for accuracy.
It happens.