MiM:PUT direction; debate thread

[Zeus Kabob]

This thread is reserved for debate between the MiM:PUT team, as well as a place for invested third parties to field their opinions, as well as disseminate any arguments in this thread. If anyone would like to have a one on one debate, I can moderate those through PM as best I can. My role in that would be to help both parties understand one another, as well as properly point out logical fallacies as they come up. I hope the discussions here and through PM can remain civil, but this is a place where conflicting ideas will come out. Do your best, and be as productive and straightforward as you can.

THE TEAM

Spoiler (click to show/hide):

-Ivan Aedler (Creator, Director, Main Coder, Animator, Designer)
-Blargh (Main Animator, coder)
-ThatGuy45 (Scene sketches)
-SuperDodoMan12 (Scene sketches)
-MPLDAM (Levels sketches, art)
-OwnerOfSuccuby (animator)
-Terrantor (artist)
-Quiz (script/writer/revisor).
-AsianP3rsuas10n (designer).
-VintageBass (sketches).
-Darthan
-Toyloli (she is a Designer, Coder and Animator).
-Soloid (Main Environment designer).
-LuftMallow (Designer).
-The Dirty Monkey. Uninvolved
-Digfree (Designer). Uninvolved
-Biles (Designer, animator, IK techniques). Uninvolved
-Yurinicolau (designer). Uninvolved
-Playshapes (original conceptor, coder). Uninvolved

Thank you,
~ZK

[Ivan-Aedler]

Thank you, Zeus, its a really nice move!

I start showing the current team state (names). Its already in page 1 of my thread. Nothing to hide, lets go

THE TEAM / CONTRIBUTORS:
(Check the FAQ about the requisites to participate).

Spoiler (click to show/hide):

ACTIVE KNIGHTS:
-Ivan Aedler (Creator, Director, Main Coder, Animator, Designer)
-Blargh (Main Animator, coder)
-ThatGuy45 (Scene sketches)
-SuperDodoMan12 (Scene sketches)
-MPLDAM (Levels sketches, art)
-OwnerOfSuccuby (animator)
-Terrantor (artist)


RETIRED / ON PAUSE
-Playshapes (original conceptor, coder). He isnt coding his games so far.
-Quiz (script/writer/revisor). He also has a good insight about Mario titles and character personalities. He quit. He decided to make his own project.
-AsianP3rsuas10n (designer). He quit. He decided to make his own project.
-VintageBass (sketches). He quit. He decided to make his own project.
-Toyloli (she is a Designer, Coder and Animator). She quit. She decided to make her own project.
-Soloid (Main Environment designer). He quit. He decided to make his own project.
-LuftMallow (Designer). He quit. He decided to make his own project.
-The Dirty Monkey - Main Cartoon Designer. He is absent.
-Digfree (Designer) - Honorary Contributor
-Biles (Designer, animator, IK techniques). He is absent.
-Yurinicolau (designer). He is absent.

Now I'll enlist people that started the 'breakdown':
-VintageBass
-QuizmasterBoos

The others just quit (they got bored, they got busy, etc), so that doesnt count, I understand them. Some of them come from time to time and we talk a lot
What I see (my point of view) from this case:

1- All was going on well, we even met on Skype, sometimes everyday AND everynight. Tons of nice discussions, ideas, and fantasies! We even shared porn pictures. Great boobies, some Peach art, and tons of dialogues and scene ideas (I have them all and I'll implement them all, I am just prioritizing levels and scenes, but this was already said many times). We were almost close friends, really. I used even to skip some of my hobbies just to stay online.

2- In a given day of october 2013, something was .....wrong.....I think Quiz started to get bored, then he went to videogames. He even mentioned this. VintageBass was still active and we're going on well. I played Super Mario RPG ONLY because of Quiz, and I learned something from it that might make me develop a remake for Flash (a hentai one of course). He made me also acquire Super Mario Sunshine and I am playing it slowly.
3- End of december: Toyloli created the first scenes with our own maskots. and I've implemented one of them (Zess T one!) The christmas scene wanst implemented on time , and Toyloli also made a Vintage and Ivan version (I am a toad!) The planning was to INCREASE the TIME invested on LEVELS and SCENES in 2014 to avoid the game being completed only in 2015 or even farther. Okay!
4- February: VintageBass didnt like the changes I've made with Cherbil. I've put it more dick shaped. In less than a week, I've put him back to the original version. But something was.....wrong. People were not talking in skype as before, and the team got silent.....Luftmallow havent talk to me anymore (he promised to help me with belly outfits and improvements of old outfits like classic dress). Where is Luft?

Then, recently (10th of March), I've talked to VintageBass, Luft and Quiz in private and I've discovered they......were making their own game, without noticing me! Well, they would at least say that something was wrong.
Then Vintagebass started the 'explosion'. He called me 'stubborn' all of a sudden, and all the discussion (flame?) started. 'You dont listen, you made TONS of things we dont like' (he hasnt listed them until we started to enlist them, like Geno being a human). Well, I am still upset, stunned and .......yes.....deceived due to this attack.

Darthan joined the 'cause' being on their side. Actually you (the moderator) can check his posts... he is a good guy, but...he complained more than helped (thats just my point of view). Its hard to find (or we cant find) when he says: 'ivan, nice one!', 'Ivan I like that scene, thank you'.

Quiz appeared tonight saying sorry but.... everything was 'already done', like a milk glass falling in the floor, and I am of course upset, annoyed. They said everything, they 'made their catarsis' then they left.
Its so easy to do this huh? Why havent you guys talked to me tenderly, months ago? They say I was not hearing them anymore. But wait......hearing what? Features, features and features to be put in the game. INstead of helping me directly ('Ivan, here is the dialogues, I'll work with more later', 'Ivan, here is the sketch of level 5-1')... but no....they were there, with crossed arms, just waiting me to.......WORK.

They even said: 'Ivan only want us to develop things to him'.
What I am doing most of the time? I am working. And what were they doing? Blaming me because I havent created or put what they wanted.
Guess what? I felt myself under pressure.

I am still upset. But what to do? I'll keep going.
All leftover features will be made eventually, with or without them with me. I will enjoy it and I'll be make it like they're understanding me and still being with me.
Thats my point of view.

[Zeus Kabob]

It's nice to hear your side of this. From what I've heard, the history may be a little deeper; there may have been some long standing issues that needed to breathe, and this is the right place to let that happen.

From what I've heard, your points are these:
you feel betrayed that your team has left without notifying you of their project;
you feel hurt at Vintage's outburst about your "stubbornness";
you feel angry that your team is leaving the project, leaving you to do the work.

[Darthan]

I would like to point a few things out that you seem to have ignored.

1. You keep talking about how the team abandoned you but you yourself say that most discussion of the game moved to Skype so I was only finding out about things after the decisions had been made. This made me feel like I had been abandoned but I never said anything because to me it seemed that my input was no longer wanted.
2. You were the one that brought me into the discussion. As I said before, if you had left me out of the discussion I would have stayed out of it. You brought me into this when you basically said that I had "abandoned" you. I tried to explain why I quit giving my input and it just turned into a big argument.

I can say I was honestly not surprised that Vintage came out and said that do to problems within the team he and a few others would no longer be working on this project. I started noticing issues shortly after you moved almost all team discussions to Skype but as I said above, I felt my input was not wanted so I stayed silent.

I am genuinely sorry if you fell that I was attacking you, that was never my intention. I do have issues with anger and am aware that things tend to come off harsher than I intend when I start to get irritated.

As far as you feeling that I complained more than I helped. I guess the way you see things that is true. I am the kind of person that will point out what I see as problems and praise things that I feel are better than what was expected. I do not give praise for what I expect. If that is what you want you are looking at the wrong person.

The final thing I would like to say is that, to me, your constant comments about not complimenting you on anything is starting to sound like you are fishing for compliments and that is something I do not like. If you do something I believe is worthy of a compliment I will compliment you on it. Don't come to me asking me for compliments cause that is not going to get you anything.

[Ivan-Aedler]

From what I've heard, your points are these:
you feel betrayed that your team has left without notifying you of their project;
you feel hurt at Vintage's outburst about your "stubbornness";
you feel angry that your team is leaving the project, leaving you to do the work.

Almost. Please let me correct some.

-I feel betrayed the team started to be silent, not communicating as before, while I was working like a horse. Then they left without notifying me with a precise cause (enlisting all affecting things), while talking in secrecy (they even started their own game)!
-I feel upset my team just gave me orders and started to prohibite things from being put in my own game, saying I was not including any of their features. It sounded like I was not coding for my game anymore.
-I feel hurt by Vintage's outburst about "stubbornness" (and he was saying it was only the beginning!).

[Ivan-Aedler]

I would like to point a few things out that you seem to have ignored. 1. You keep talking about how the team abandoned you but you yourself say that most discussion of the game moved to Skype so I was only finding out about things after the decisions had been made.

The problem is that the 'decisions' and 'discussions' on skype werent happening at all. I've had to contact Vintage to ask 'whats going on?'

2. You were the one that brought me into the discussion. As I said before, if you had left me out of the discussion I would have stayed out of it. You brought me into this when you basically said that I had "abandoned" you. I tried to explain why I quit giving my input and it just turned into a big argument.

I still think: "why I've put you in the team". Maybe because I've thought you would participate more? I am not saying you are bad. I am saying that I expected a different Darthan. Again, I am sorry, we dont know how the other person is until knowing him more. This doesnt imply we cant be friends. But we are incompatible to be in the same team, that can explain why the break.

I can say I was honestly not surprised that Vintage came out and said that do to problems within the team he and a few others would no longer be working on this project. I started noticing issues shortly after you moved almost all team discussions to Skype but as I said above, I felt my input was not wanted so I stayed silent.

I still think skype made that worse, because skype is more used for daily things......talk about trips, likes, dislikes, games.... I was saying to them that I wanted a more focused talk (MIM PUT). But that isnt working well. Vintage says skype had nothing to do, and I keep saying it has. Its like working at home. You lose focus. Its better to work in another place (in an office, in a library).
LOK is my library.

I am genuinely sorry if you fell that I was attacking you, that was never my intention. I do have issues with anger and am aware that things tend to come off harsher than I intend when I start to get irritated.

I understand. I am also sorry about anything I might have said that made you think I was not paying attention. I have problems understanding certain expressions. English is not my main language.

As far as you feeling that I complained more than I helped. I guess the way you see things that is true. I am the kind of person that will point out what I see as problems and praise things that I feel are better than what was expected. I do not give praise for what I expect. If that is what you want you are looking at the wrong person.

No, I dont want you to 'be different' than you are. I just wanted people to point out positive things too, not only negative ones.
I would never go to a given person's thread to just argue about something or just say this, this this this and that are not good.
And worse, without a workaround to make it better. ( I am not saying you made this all).

I appreciate when people are descriptive, then I can follow the walkthrough/idea/feature, then put it in, and they say: 'Ivan, thank you, its a lot better', or 'Ivan, its almost there'.

The final thing I would like to say is that, to me, your constant comments about not complimenting you on anything is starting to sound like you are fishing for compliments and that is something I do not like. If you do something I believe is worthy of a compliment I will compliment you on it.

Just make me know what you would like to see. I think that could be a good start. And just try (at least), when coming to the thread, to give some hope, even if it only means to say: 'Hi Ivan, how are you'?
I dont want you to 'be like that' if thats not you way to communicate. Its only the feeling you only go to the thread to complain.

[Darthan]

Darthan saying the game was just a collection of scenes.

Once again you say I did something that I did not do. I never once said this game was just a collection of scenes. I have stated many times that I have never said this yet you keep coming back and say that I did. The comment I made about a game needing to be more than just a collection of scenes was a response to someone saying that a porn game can never have too much porn in it. My point was that it can, if you have nothing but porn scenes and no gameplay you cannot call what you are doing a game. This was in no way a reference to your game and I never said that your game was a collection of scenes, you came up with that on your own and keep saying that I said it even after I repeatedly tell you that is not the case. I don't know about you but I have to agree with Vintage here and call that being stubborn.

[Ivan-Aedler]

Once again you say I did something that I did not do. I never once said this game was just a collection of scenes. I have stated many times that I have never said this yet you keep coming back and say that I did. The comment I made about a game needing to be more than just a collection of scenes was a response to someone saying that a porn game can never have too much porn in it. My point was that it can, if you have nothing but porn scenes and no gameplay you cannot call what you are doing a game. This was in no way a reference to your game and I never said that your game was a collection of scenes, you came up with that on your own and keep saying that I said it even after I repeatedly tell you that is not the case. I don't know about you but I have to agree with Vintage here and call that being stubborn.

Ok I am sorry. I believe in you. I removed that reference.
(You will notice I dont call names to anyone, I respect how the other behave, they all have reasons to).

Well, getting back to work.

[VintageBass]

OK, I should apologize for what I have been doing on the main forums, that is something that I usually not do. I was acting pretty much under some emotions and hoo boy did that get a little out of control. Heck I'm not sure if that is justified in some of the things I said, I'm kinda 50/50 in things I said back there. And sure I could have gone about the whole matter in a more controlled matter, I don't really have much control over how I get angry. So I do apologize for any sort of anger that happened on the topic and coming off as a major jerk in all of this.

Now onto my thoughts.

I'm kinda the same about my own anger and what has happened in my last few posts could definitely fit as angry posts. I do question if I did the right thing in those posts, since they're a bit of a mixture of lashing out in anger (which is never a good thing) and some calm honesty about what is going on. Plus, considering how some of the team members weren't saying anything, I do question whether or not I was the right one in starting this. I know that Quiz and Luft have expressed something in commenting about Ivan's work habit and behavior, but they never did, mostly due to if they say anything they'll come off as jerks. And looking back at some of my words, yeah they're not all that great. Yes I am repeating myself on this, but what else can I say? Heck, I'm also not sure if this is right for me to step up for them and express how they feel about this whole ordeal as well. It kinda feels wrong, but at the same time Ivan has to know so someone needs to explain what is going down.

And my second thought is that while this is good and all, it's not going to do much if it's just going to be only two of us arguing our views against Ivan's. I do get that leaving without telling Ivan is a good option, but with how he is going about with the lack of people helping with this, I kinda wanted him to know what has been going on. Sure he was going to learn eventually of what has been happening behind the scenes, it's just whether it is a good thing to do things now instead of having Ivan be more depressed learning that his team is doing something behind his back. Although...

- I get that this is Ivan's game, but why bring a team into this if he's going to do most of the work? It feels like we're not really doing much if he's handling everything by himself. And I have to ask if Ivan feels alone working on this, then why doesn't he reach out to his teammates and ask some of them to help with the project? There's not really any use in complaining "I'm alone" when you have a community to help out and get things done faster instead of handling everything by one's self. And with the list of things that Ivan has, it's a miracle that he hasn't crashed from all of the work he has piled on himself. Seriously, if he lends a good portion of his list of priorities to us without saying "no I got this," then really this game could be done faster instead of what's going on right now. I guess that's going to take longer with the current "levels and scenes" updating instead of assigning certain team members tasks that they are best at.

- I will have to agree with Darthan back on the forum that with Ivan's new thing for people to work for the game. It seems like you want people to give you stuff to add into the game and give praise for all the work that you put into it, along with not allowing us to have our opinions matter in the grand scheme of things. That's not how things usually work for a team. We all have to work together on this, not have some of us do things and then you take it from us, remodel it and then say that we made it, even though you changed what we made. I get that being positive is a good thing, but we still need to explain why we think some things are bad and not have to agree with everything that Ivan adds in to be a good thing. I have explained some things that I don't like, but I don't think my opinions matter if he's going to add them in anyway.

- The bored comment is not because we got bored of the game, we grew tired of working on the game. Some of us have reached that point where it's pointless to continue on, even dropping projects so we can do other things. Luft, for example, got tired of working with the bellies for 1) due to all of the crap that is on Peach's model got annoying for him to work around with, so he has to turn things off and then later for it to come back on later, and 2) it's a feature that he wasn't going to use in the future, so why give him something like that to do? This could also be chalked up to Ivan's push to get things done faster without debate or planning, wanting to get things in the game because he wants to get it done, so we are trying to keep up with the demand and are getting tired from trying to make it.

- And speaking of art, some of the art that is in the game that were created by other people, mine included, feel like that they weren't created by the person but rather Ivan. Now he has said that he wanted to use vectors for the game and some of my drawings were drawn in Photoshop instead of Illustrator or Flash, some of the ending products still don't feel like I drew them. Take for example the Cherbil, an enemy me and Quiz argued against Ivan not to put into the game for reasons that he doesn't see, the Bumpty and one enemy called the Boo Platform (or as I call it the Booform). The Cherbil is an extreme example as my version of it has it looking nearly so exact to what is in Super Paper Mario that it could be called ripped from the game (and I have no knowledge of this, plus I don't have it) and when I showed it to Ivan... he thought it was a penis and made it into, what I could guess, a micro-penis. After I complained about what Cherbil is supposed to be and how I hated the design, he did fix it back to its original shape, but it's not the version I made. And if you want to see it, here is my version, compared to the original:

Spoiler (click to show/hide):

My Cherbil.png (30.35 KiB) Viewed 2809 times

See how close I made mine to look like the game, compared to what Ivan made?

I could discuss the Bumpty as well, but I'll save that for later. For now, I will say that the penis that the Bumpty has is not my design. I never made a penis model for the Bumpty (mostly because I have no idea what a penguin penis looks like and finding one that isn't fan art to a movie isn't all that great in research), that is Ivan's creation.

- Again, I gotta go with Darthan on this, you asking for compliments isn't that great of a model to work with. Having compliment after compliment for something like this is not great because when you get something what I did, it's going to cause a lot of problems. You need to have some negative comments to balance things out and you shouldn't be brushing them off with a positive attitude. I'm not saying to get mad or upset about it, heck having such an upbeat attitude is great in cases, I'm just saying that you really shouldn't ignore what I'm trying to say and focus on more of the positive comments than negatives. If my words have been toned down, you should treat the negatives as the same as the positives, and really more people should express the negatives, albeit not in the way that I did it. Although knowing the audience is probably the best thing to do, and with how many of them are praising the game without knowing the behind the scenes action, yeah of course they're praising. It'll be nice to have some of the criticism from the new Breeding Season art (which I kinda like. Sure there are a few design choices that I don't like, but I feel like they are good for the characters and I love the art style), but, as I said, not in the way I've did it.

- And I would finish this by saying that Ivan complains that there's a communications problem. I could sort of agree with this, since there's a lack of people to back things up, but the real problem seems to be a lack of understanding going on. Sure some of us don't have a clue on what Ivan wants us to do with the game, to the point where we question his logic behind making this, and it can be flipped around where he's not understanding how we're doing things. Part of the arguments were just misunderstandings Ivan is making, probably because he isn't all that familiar with what we are used to, but then I could also say that could be because he has such a fixed view on he wants the game that it's hard to break down. I know that it's impossible to completely change Ivan's opinions around, we just want him to understand where we're coming from and see that we are right in some of this.

[Ivan-Aedler]

OK, I should apologize for what I have been doing on the main forums, that is something that I usually not do. I was acting pretty much under some emotions and hoo boy did that get a little out of control.

I am also sorry for my 'simulated' stubborness (if any) due to my insistences. But now the milk was dropped already and we need some time now. As I cant be standing still (I tend to be depressive), my defense is to keep working.

Now onto my thoughts. I'm kinda the same about my own anger and what has happened in my last few posts could definitely fit as angry posts. I do question if I did the right thing in those posts, since they're a bit of a mixture of lashing out in anger (which is never a good thing) and some calm honesty about what is going on. Plus, considering how some of the team members weren't saying anything, I do question whether or not I was the right one in starting this. I know that Quiz and Luft have expressed something in commenting about Ivan's work habit and behavior, but they never did, mostly due to if they say anything they'll come off as jerks. And looking back at some of my words, yeah they're not all that great. Yes I am repeating myself on this, but what else can I say? Heck, I'm also not sure if this is right for me to step up for them and express how they feel about this whole ordeal as well. It kinda feels wrong, but at the same time Ivan has to know so someone needs to explain what is going down.

I still dont know what happenned, if you ask so (even the lack of communication phase in SK). Maybe everything was just boring or we were just thinking about something else for a moment (remember I wanted to play Super Mario Sunshine and relax a bit? Also my vacation, which never appeared?)

And my second thought is that while this is good and all, it's not going to do much if it's just going to be only two of us arguing our views against Ivan's. I do get that leaving without telling Ivan is a good option, but with how he is going about with the lack of people helping with this, I kinda wanted him to know what has been going on. Sure he was going to learn eventually of what has been happening behind the scenes, it's just whether it is a good thing to do things now instead of having Ivan be more depressed learning that his team is doing doing something behind his back. Although...

I cant control anybody. I just wanted more communication, because at least from my side of view (genetics? behavioral growing?), I am a kind of person who really cares (or at least try) about communication and being sincere and transparent about what we were engaged for. That explains why I used SK so much. I wasnt like that. I was entering there more often due to your guys.

I get that this is Ivan's game, but why bring a team into this if he's going to do most of the work? It feels like we're not really doing much if he's handling everything by himself.

I am sorry but I just cant think about what you guys can do aside of dialogues (which are in 'on hold' state), art (you were making some, like the Klown Kar), levels (Quiz was creating levels using Lunar Magic) and scenes (I have them all with me, like Peach and Mona, Peach and Toadsworth...). Actually you guys made a lot of progress and helped a lot, its just the fact we are dealing with a huge game. There are many things that can be done, though, like bug testing. Thats what I am doing right now with Happy Goomba and BenshowSly. Ben lives in the same ground as Blargh and he wants to help me using the method we were doing before: without being obligated to, without being forced to. He can enter and leave at any time. He is just wanting to help, to make the game as most bugfree as possible.
The same with Luftmallow. He was working with his own time, and he admitted he was having fun. I never said: 'Luft, you MUST do this now'. That's silly, crazy talk. I dont work like this. Actually I am the contrary. I work using their tasks sometimes, mostly when the other says to me he is now busy due to school, work, etc.

And I have to ask if Ivan feels alone working on this, then why doesn't he reach out to his teammates and ask some of them to help with the project? There's not really any use in complaining "I'm alone" when you have a community to help out and get things done faster instead of handling everything by one's self. And with the list of things that Ivan has, it's a miracle that he hasn't crashed from all of the work he has piled on himself. Seriously, if he lends a good portion of his list of priorities to us without saying "no I got this," then really this game could be done faster instead of what's going on right now.

I havent got any help from other teams aside of the team list in the first post of this thread. I was waiting, no one appeared, then I decided to move on. I cant wait for so long, or MIM PUT will be on hiatus.

I guess that's going to take longer with the current "levels and scenes" updating instead of assigning certain team members tasks that they are best at.

Of course if Quiz was making levels as before (or dialogue changes in the spreadsheet), and other people allocated to make that feature list I've sent so many times on SK but maybe no one had time to read it all, we could be more active.

I will have to agree with Darthan back on the forum that with Ivan's new thing for people to work for the game. It seems like you want people to give you stuff to add into the game and give praise for all the work that you put into it, along with not allowing us to have our opinions matter in the grand scheme of things.

Ok lets start again.......This time I'll show some proof I've listened to the team (and you convinced me many times to do things the team has decided, not me):

In-game changes:

Spoiler (click to show/hide):

- Quiz/Asian convinced me to use rounded level floors, blue color in the worldmap (like Mario and Luigi game, forgot the name), instead of the square ones in SMB3.
- Quiz convinced me to have up to 7 levels in each world instead of 10.
- Quiz wanted a dark/shadow toad house room. He imagined Peach having sex in the shadow without knowing who was bugging her (actually the plan was to make 1 scene, with the shadow being a human male or female according to the player, but this ended up a bit complex). So I've made enemies who appears from a mysterious door in the right.
- The team decided to improve the prologue, removing the tons of goombas, and putting airships (also we made a voting poll). I wanted to make Mario eat a pizza then disappear of Peach's bedroom (in the prologue), but I cancelled it. I also accepted the idea of the three toads bullying her.
- The blueprint idea from Quiz was 101% accepted.
- Yurinicolau and I helped each other in a comission (Peach and Osama) by TheDirtyMonkey.
- I accepted the changes and the art from TheDirtyMoneky, who were in the team. He made Peach's portrait, Peach frontside model in the pause menu, and 2 full graphics for free, and some paid ones.
- The team didnt like Toadella, then I added the original Toadette model (since more than a year ago, still in the old Peach castle).
- Quiz convinced me to use fewer poison blocks in levels, in order not to annoy the player.
- The team agreed of adding the inventory item, like SMB3.
- The team convinced me not to add 30, 40, 50 oufits. We've stopped at the 21th. I only added 2 so far (the expected swimsuit and Koopa Slave).
- The team decided to put the Save and Load in the HUD, in the right side, in the worldmap.
- You guys convinced me not to make cheap sex scenes, like with Thwomps.
- Quiz convinced me to improve some of Peach poses, like the old swimming animation, and the need of it to make her 'float'/drift in the water if she is a frog.
- Quiz and Toyloli said the veggies werent being thrown with a correct speed and aim. I improved them.
- Quiz gave me pictures and ideas for tree top art, and Toyloli remade the roofs.
- Some songs in the game were also exchanged due to our team discussion. Quiz gave the idea of the current Toad Town music.
- The separate gloves, stockings, and garter were ideas I shared with the team almost 2 years ago.
- Mallow, Geno, Bobomb Buddy and many other creatures were put in the game due to Quiz ideas. I wanted to put General White instead of the Buddy in the Bunker.
- The 'Peach Castle as a HUB' was an idea from the team. I didnt want to make the castle like that, but I said: 'ok you're right'.
- The Bunker idea was also the Team idea. I wanted to use tons of pipes (hall of pipes idea).
- Someone in the team (ok I dont remember whom) said it was better to use the eagle mouth in Wolrd 3 levels. I made it.
- Biles convinced me to use his new Birdo.
- Vintage had the idea to have Wario in the game.
- Asian convinced me many Phanto scenes required better changes
- Asian gave ideas about how the castle building should be destroyed (when Peach finishes grey castle levels)
- Quiz, Toyloli, Vintage and Asian gave me ideas about the Achievements, which I do want to implement it (the screen was done months ago and its still to be completed).
- MPLDAM gave me ideas about the use of his dildoes and the pizzeria level.
- Many scenes by Blargh (he still wants to work on them, and he praised me for the amount I did, helping him to, when he decides to put in his MIM DO game).

Changelog (what people helped with):

Spoiler (click to show/hide):

- NEW: Level 4-3 by me and Quiz.
- Improved Tips (by Quiz, the scripter). Many of them were old and unprecise.
- Almost all World 5 levels and some of World 7 by MPLDAM.
- Almost 30 new scene drawings from ThatGuy45.
- NEW: Level 2-6, Daisy Castle and Level 2-7 (airship). All are now playable. Idea and sketch of 2-6 by Quiz! Thank you!
- Better scene with Toadsworth (blowjob - script by Quiz) and a new one (bed scene)
- NEW: Nurse outfit (by Luftmallow) and a new 'Pill' powerup!
- NEW: Koopaling Wendy guarding the airship above (a placeholder so far). Made by LuftMallow.
- NEW: "Peachy Racer" outfit by Luftmallow. Also, fixed clipping boobs problem.
- NEW 5th blooper scene by Blargh and Luftmallow.
- NEW: Added Tigeress outfit by Luftmallow!
- Added Playshapes Peach as a new character to choose, and Brawl Dress (by Playshapes/Luftmallow)
- NEW: Added PENGUIN OUTFIT by Luftmallow.
- New outfit: X-naut (By LuftMallow)
- Improved boobs and bras (while facing frontside) By Luftmallow and me.
- X-naut: New living enemy (x-naut PHD), two large corridors, sir Grodus lounge, 'TEC-XXX', Captive room, Bathroom, CONCOCTIONATOR room and Sir Grodus computer room with living fish chomps (Nibbles) by LuftMallow
- +4 Anuboo scenes ('shadow dog') from Super Mario SuperStar Saga (created by Luftmallow!)
- Added Frontside Rosalina to the pause menu (made by Luftmallow).
- NEW: Peach Frontside by LuftMallow (Breasts may be not ideal. I will fix during the next updates)
- Added Daisy and Rosalina OUTFIT, by Luftmallow.
- NEW: backside mode improved (thanks Luftmallow!)
- NEW: more graphics and bigger watery level (thanks Luftmallow!)
(and more - not listed here because the changelog is huge).

That's not how things usually work for a team. We all have to work together on this

Answered above.

Not have some of us do things and then you take it from us, remodel it and then say that we made it, even though you changed what we made. I get that being positive is a good thing, but we still need to explain why we think some things are bad and not have to agree with everything that Ivan adds in to be a good thing.

Lets discuss about it, a thing we havent done on time in SK.

I have explained some things that I don't like, but I don't think my opinions matter if he's going to add them in anyway.

I just wanted to speed up the process. And like I said, there were features we discussed that I just wanted so bad in the game.

The bored comment is not because we got bored of the game, we grew tired of working on the game. Some of us have reached that point where it's pointless to continue on, even dropping projects so we can do other things. Luft, for example, got tired of working with the bellies for 1) due to all of the crap that is on Peach's model got annoying for him to work around with, so he has to turn things off and then later for it to come back on later, and 2) it's a feature that he wasn't going to use in the future, so why give him something like that to do?

He said NOTHING to me about his feelings about the situation. He just made a picture of him beneath outfits (a comic), then he disappeared. How I could know what the team feels if no one talks to me transparently?

This could also be chalked up to Ivan's push to get things done faster without debate or planning, wanting to get things in the game because he wants to get it done, so we are trying to keep up with the demand and are getting tired from trying to make it.

You might be correct on that. The main problem might was the rushing, that is, with another frequency, a frequency ratio that was tiring, exhausting.
I am hyperactive. However, I say again, communication is the key and I was accessing LOK and SK almost everyday.

And speaking of art, some of the art that is in the game that were created by other people, mine included, feel like that they weren't created by the person but rather Ivan.

I just wanted to optimize them in order to be faster and less memory intensive.

Now he has said that he wanted to use vectors for the game and some of my drawings were drawn in Photoshop instead of Illustrator or Flash, some of the ending products still don't feel like I drew them. Take for example the Cherbil, an enemy me and Quiz argued against Ivan not to put into the game for reasons that he doesn't see........The Cherbil is an extreme example as my version of it has it looking nearly so exact to what is in Super Paper Mario that it could be called ripped from the game (and I have no knowledge of this, plus I don't have it) and when I showed it to Ivan... he thought it was a penis and made it into, what I could guess, a micro-penis.

Just because I wanted it so bad in the game is a reason for you guys to say: 'ENOUGH!' !!?? :/

Here is the summary of the models:

My model WAS yours, optimized.

The Bumpty and one enemy called the Boo Platform (or as I call it the Booform).

But you liked those ideas. The Boo Platform was remade because the original was too white.

I could discuss the Bumpty as well, but I'll save that for later. For now, I will say that the penis that the Bumpty has is not my design. I never made a penis model for the Bumpty (mostly because I have no idea what a penguin penis looks like and finding one that isn't fan art to a movie isn't all that great in research), that is Ivan's creation.

Yes that was my creation. I needed it because I was making scenes for him while you guys disappeared or shouted/attacked me.

If my words have been toned down, you should treat the negatives as the same as the positives, and really more people should express the negatives, albeit not in the way that I did it.

Of course we need to pinpoint positive and negative sides. Its silly to only be positive at all times.

And I would finish this by saying that Ivan complains that there's a communications problem. I could sort of agree with this, since there's a lack of people to back things up, but the real problem seems to be a lack of understanding going on. Sure some of us don't have a clue on what Ivan wants us to do with the game

The main goal is to complete the game with levels and scenes, which come first...As for levels, we need 21 more, with all expected enemies and their placement (heck, I dont want to include those 83 ones we have so far, just the main ones, like Lakitu). Then I wanted to make scenes for them. Why having 17 goomba scenes, 18 toad scenes, then only 1 or 2 lakitu ones? Thats why I was rushing. But I let it clear I was organizing features, that is, puzzles to be in the game, thats one of the tasks the team could be helping with, aside of dialogues (expected), levels (Quiz was making those in the past), and a general discussion. But we needed more communication, more brainstorming.

As for the scenes. Blargh disappears from time to time. Then I am all alone. The team was not working with dialogues, art and a discussion in general (we were talking about fantasies, fetishes, and even exchanging porn pictures), then...... empty void.....

My conclusion is....with 10, 5, or only me in the team, I need to work the most I can because I have a goal. For that, people need perseverance, and a constant meeting.

[Ivan-Aedler]

Due to the absence of any people that could discuss here, I recognize this case as FINISHED.
As I have tons of work to do, and people keep kindly helping inside and outside the team, all is fine and lets rock!
New art, levels and scenes will keep going like rabbits!! (if I remain healthy of course)
God bless all of you. If you need me, just PM me, and I'll see a good time to answer to.

Regards,
Ivan.

[VintageBass]

Due to the absence of any people that could discuss here, I recognize this case as FINISHED.

That's not really the thing. As I said, with how some of the others are, they don't want to debate because there's really no need for something like this. If you are willing to actually listen to some of us, your former and current team, and not all of the lurkers, you could have a much better game than what is already here. Just because we're not saying anything doesn't mean that it's all cleared up. There are still problems with the game, and really part of the problem is that for some of us we don't want to help because you are hard to work with.

So no, this case is not "finished." It's not closed. It will be once you get some of your former teammates back on board for this project and let us have more creative control for this game.

[Ivan-Aedler]

If you are willing to actually listen to some of us, your former and current team, and not all of the lurkers, you could have a much better game than what is already here.

First of all, hello there!! How are you man? I hope all is fine.
I dont want to argue, but you're not right. As you know,I am descriptive in all my actions, so lets go.

1) I always hear people. Maybe you havent absorbed what I said above, with plenty of examples and the list of updates I did involving changes you guys discussed about (the worldmap design, amount of levels, etc).
2) You have YOUR personal frequency, lets say, 402mhz. Maybe Quiz have 290mhz, and Luft, 19mhz (just examples). Nobody is equal. People who were in the team (Yurinicolau, Slayer_J, and Soloid) worked with me with at, say, 11mhz. Lets say the compatible frequencies are between 6 and 20mhz. So, it WAS a good past, a situation where there was more friendship, understanding of the differences of every member, the constant reunions, the features the game would have, and more important, a LIST of features (all documented) with scenes like Peach and Daisy, the possible appearence of Mona, and the features that ended up in the game, while the others are still on progress. People who left the team before the recent ones usually did this because THEY DIDNT HAVE TIME to continue. Some even left the entire LOK site. I just couldnt change other people lives to make hentai games. I miss all of them.

3) Of course I am free to say YES to some things, and NO to other things, with reasons. My game would NOT be 'terrible' just because I wanted to put things I decided since the beginning. The game should have some of my identity, as well as Playshape's. You already know this.
4) Tasks you promised to do (like dialogue fixes, klown car) were not made yet. Instead, we keep with that empty void and you all became extremelly silent since SK. This makes me conclude its ABANDONED. With no interest from you and others, I will make the missing features alone, no problem. What did I make this week? Up to 30 bug fixes and 3 Peach and Daisy scenes. It was complex, tiring and I slept like 4 hours last wednesday. But everything is valuable. Its work being made.
5) 'Have a much better game' is a speculative estimate. I am unsatisfied of what you call 'a much better game'. Its like I MUST agree with ALL you guys say, like you guys were Miyamoto himself.
6) Lurkers are important too, they're humans too. And how could I have a really important meeting if only 1 or 2 (or no one) of the team appears in? How about those silent months in Skype? I gave up.

Please continue.

Just because we're not saying anything doesn't mean that it's all cleared up. There are still problems with the game

Enlist all of them or we will be arguing endlessly here. You already know it.

and really part of the problem is that for some of us we don't want to help because you are hard to work with.

Because of the different frequency you guys are. I respect it, man. I wont be changing your mode of work. If we dont understand we are thinking with different frequencies, you will keep blaming me, and I'll keep defending myself.

So no, this case is not "finished." It's not closed. It will be once you get some of your former teammates back on board for this project and let us have more creative control for this game.

First, try to understand why the 'break up'. Try to see things from my side. I, using my few time to work in this game, then checking that something was strange... a silent board.....a silent SK.... then your bursts. "-YOU'RE STUBBORN', etc..... Do you think I loved this? Of course not. Did I call you ANY name? No. Why? I have no rights to give 'names' or personality to people, even unknown ones. If I can give something, its praise. Appreciation. Respect.