First world problems!

[BlueLight]

So i've been signing some petitions at change.org and while just signing these things isn't going to magically change the world, but they do allow me to understand problems other people in the world have and to give them some power to change things.

So anyways this petition stuck out to me, and i think it needs some support. Basically, there is a channel on youtube that's acting inappropriate (Go figure!) and its basic premise is to sexually harass women on street and in fact goes to extremes like groping. I know this is a odd place to put this since this is a sex based forum, but i think this channel is going to far.
I'm fine with fantasizing about these things or playing games about it; but going out to the street and just doing this to random women is just wrong.
Please click the link, read what they have to say and do your own research. If you agree they have a good enough case, then please sign it.
http://www.change.org/petitions/youtube ... el-2#share

-BlueLight.

[Duplicity]

Some people don't care about others.
The world is cruel and some people embrace the cold hearted attitude of the real world too much.

I haven't heard of or seen the videos, but to me it sounds illegal. Freedom of speech and expression can only go so far.
So yeah, kick the shit out of them and record it. See how they like being filmed when they are vulnerable.

[Zeus Kabob]

I think this petition is bullshit (in too harsh of words, of course). I think that the people here are doing something illegal, but not on the filming and posting side of it. Posting videos of people getting groped is already prevalent and accepted in the cases where the girls are consenting and whatnot. What's not accepted or legal is unconsenting girls being groped, however the solution isn't to censor these people who will probably find other outs, but to take legal action. One major thing that the petition talks about is that groping is accepted as a thing that happens in the streets, but there's a lot that people can do to solve this issue. Girls shouting to let people know about it, others coming to resolve the issue, and other difficult (it's scary and hard to deal with these situations in reality) solutions can help bring down the common threat of groping, and to hamper the operations of these guys in particular.

Tl;dr: no censorship, more active participation in keeping girls safe.

[Duplicity]

To me the groping is the secondary evil to the posting of the act.
Bad enough to be groped by some letch, but then for it to be posted on the internet.
I don't know if they show the girls' faces or anything, but the public nature of the act seems to be the worse thing.

There is a thing called the bystander effect. Basically the more people around the less likely they are to help. They all think that someone else will do something.
Example: A famous case in New York of a lady called Kitty. She was brutally raped and bashed for an hour(at least it was quite a while) right outside her own apartment block before being murdered. No one reported to police until her body was found in the morning. Yet they all said they heard the screams and cries for help. No one called the police or went to help because they thought someone else would.
Conclusion: Society is messed up and we are all doomed to die ironically from human nature.
By the way, not that I know or anything. But Western Chikan is one group to post videos of molesting women, all totally 'real' and not staged. That is porn, of sorts. This other stuff just sounds like harassment.
Yeah censorship won't help anyone. Don't censor, just stop illegality.

[BlueLight]

To me the groping is the secondary evil to the posting of the act.
Bad enough to be groped by some letch, but then for it to be posted on the internet.
I don't know if they show the girls' faces or anything, but the public nature of the act seems to be the worse thing.

There is a thing called the bystander effect. Basically the more people around the less likely they are to help. They all think that someone else will do something.
Example: A famous case in New York of a lady called Kitty. She was brutally raped and bashed for an hour(at least it was quite a while) right outside her own apartment block before being murdered. No one reported to police until her body was found in the morning. Yet they all said they heard the screams and cries for help. No one called the police or went to help because they thought someone else would.
Conclusion: Society is messed up and we are all doomed to die ironically from human nature.
By the way, not that I know or anything. But Western Chikan is one group to post videos of molesting women, all totally 'real' and not staged. That is porn, of sorts. This other stuff just sounds like harassment.
Yeah censorship won't help anyone. Don't censor, just stop illegality.

so if i know the case you're talking about, strangely enough at least one person reported the problem but it was consider a domestic dispute. Might be a different case. Was this by chance in queens area?

Anyways, to Zeus, I would think i would in public but the problem is that i'm never around when anything like this happens.
Zeus, in my state petitioning is a important part. For instance if more than 50% of the population sign a petition, we can get a law to be voted on. It's happened more than once in the state and it allows people to avoid politicians

[Duplicity]

Hmm I'm not sure BlueLight. I don't know the New York area well. Only what law and order and other shows have taught me.
I read this case in my psychology book for school. But they did water some content down and skip over the rest. So with Pavlov's experiments they made it sound humane, when really he externalised their saliva gland in his testing of the chemical make up of the saliva when he noticed the accidental conditioning.

You maybe right about one or two calls. But really I think the screams would have made clear it wasn't a domestic. And even if it was, does that mean it should be ignored?
I think a lot of people would look at this and think that there were worse things to worry about. Or they would think on it, until something worse happened.
I think it is better to start at the bottom. We reduce the bad behaviour at a naughty or relatively tame level, such as this groping and so on. And then those people will be less likely to move onto the worse stuff. Like rape and sexual assult.

[Zeus Kabob]

Anyways, to Zeus, I would think i would in public but the problem is that i'm never around when anything like this happens.
Zeus, in my state petitioning is a important part. For instance if more than 50% of the population sign a petition, we can get a law to be voted on. It's happened more than once in the state and it allows people to avoid politicians

I completely understand, but as a child of the internet I'm really against censorship. Been reading about some really ridiculous things in China and North Korea, and the idea of censoring people and thinking it removes the harassment just puts a bad taste in my mouth.

Trying to stop this stuff, to do anything about it is really fine though, because guys harassing girls on the street is really an issue.

[Boostep]

The way I see it, porn is a way for people to express their darkest fantasies. These fantasies aren't supposed to be released from your imagination except in the form of artistic expression, consensual pictures and videos. Groping a person in real life is very, very different in fiction. Why? Because fiction isn't real.

From what I noticed from the supposed "scandalous" pornos, was that it was all just acting. No, that isn't that guy's girlfriend, that's just Shyla Stylez acting. These things are supposed to be fictional fantasies, not the real thing. But when it gets to be the real thing, shit just needs to stop and people need to get arrested.

[BlueLight]

So Zeus, you call this censorship, i call it the ethical thing to do. I am a person that reasons. Now since i can reason, i say that uploading real rape online is unethical. It's also unethical to keep real rape online.

Real rape is the act to take some essence of someone's being and using it to harm them in some way: This could be using their body in sexual ways that have not been allowed; This could be forcing them to abort or birth a child; This be verbally abusing them; If you upload even computer made images of rape based on a real person it is rape.

I don't tell you this to say you're unethical, or that i am better than you. I tell you so you know where i come from and what's my justification are. I as a person that reasons and who is not an animal (I hope); reason that it is unethical because it harms them. It is a rule that lacks if statements and raises one to a plane closer to an angel thus i think it's valid.
Again i don't except you to even follow kants ethical system, but this is my justification as to why it's ethically required to remove it. Well why it's ethically wrong to upload it.

Kant doesn't care about reactions.

[Zeus Kabob]

I understand that Blue, and I appreciate your reasons behind it. I'm sure you'll call me immediately for an ad-hominem, but that fallacy only works if I try to discredit your point, which I don't. Instead, I'd simply like to point out how often I find you picking apart others' arguments and then coming back here and posting that. Maybe it was an act of passion? Maybe you've got a deep emotional connection to molestation, and I can appreciate that.

At the same time, I'd like to point out a couple of things. Ethics and censorship aren't the same thing. Censorship can be ethical or unethical. Yes, it is censorship. Yes, you find it ethical. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Next, this isn't rape. It's sexually depraved and a gross mistreatment of women as human beings, but rape is legally defined as sexual intrusion without consent. I'll admit I haven't watched the videos, but I doubt there's any penetration.

Finally, Kant says "Act only on that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law". If everyone molested women, there would be grave consequences. If every crime were posted online, then we'd rid the world of crime in a heartbeat. Keep that in mind.

These men harassing women on the street is a crime, something they should be punished for. On the other hand, understand that their posting these videos online increases people's awareness of the issue of molestation and expedites their own arrest. Additionally it can cause copycats to begin molesting women, but I doubt anyone above the age of 14 has no knowledge of molestation.

[BlueLight]

I'm sure you'll call me immediately for an ad-hominem, but that fallacy only works if I try to discredit your point, which I don't.

I see no ad-hominem on your side; it's been awhile so i might have to read up on my fallacies again. Hell i was scared you'd take it the wrong way and think i was trying to state that i was higher and mightier than you because i was ethical; that and i was scared you might think i was calling you a unethical person. Either the post was to short and sounded like that or to long and sounded like that..

My definition of rape was to define all the things i've heard already defined as rape or i consider rape.

Oh well, i doubt we'll agree on this and that's fine. You point of view is more than fair and reasonable.
So unless Zeus or someone else has something to add to this conversation i think i'm done with this problem for now.

Anyone else have anything they want more attention brought to?