Health bar for LoK

[Thaedael]

Except that it's execution wasn't subtle at all. I personally like the idea, since it is what they are going to be doing anyway to an extent (do this or that to do this or that etc.) Also there wasn't an explanation until after the first 10 or so votes were cast. At this point it is just a one sided witch hunt (no offense)

It is a good idea, since it could open doors to new ideas. Like if she needs to get inside a warehouse, but doesn't know how. She can potentially sleep with the guard, or maybe just a fast hand-job would do, and if this in turn opened up further branching paths then it not only leads to cool things, but will make the player want to come back for more for other unlockables and thus be repayable. Either way my only counter argument to the whole situation is, if there can be something better programmed by all means go for it but the idea itself has merit.

However as with all things LoK, how about making progress first before fighting over other things?

Casted a yes vote.

[toddymon]

Actually, Trunk's explanation has put me in favor of the health bar. it seems like an interesting thing to use to me and has the potential of giving those with more leniency *cough*me*cough* more bang for their imaginary buck and could possibly open secret. Like say that at a certain point of the game you run into a guardian of sorts who protects a secret entrance and inside are a bunch of chests with a whole lot of whatever. If you have enough exp you will have the stamina to take him on, but if you don't, well it looks like you are taking the long way into the castle.

I mean. What thae said.

[trunks2585]

we originally did have it set up so you'd need a LOT of HP to get past optional bonus scenes, like coming back to scales for another fucking and the reward would be your flight suit repaired or something, so toddymon already caught onto that. I'll edit the poll so people can change votes if they decide what i'm suggesting isn't that bad but, it's like 3 to 1 against it, dunno if enough people will change their minds.

Edit: Ok i got the polls fixed so you can change your votes if you want to. Also here's the other system we'll use (currently plan on using)

This system is more true to the original game, basically every scene will still have a requirement, like someone else suggested, but the requirement will usually be based on abilities you have or will have. You gain abilities by leveling up. for example you start with hand job, blow job, and vaginal sex. after one level up you gain titfuck. so you'll be able to do the table scene after gaining a level while being able to do handjob and chairblow scenes right away. usually you'll gain an ability after every level up, and most of them will be reoccuring as the game goes on, but for the most part, you'll gain new abilities and use them right away, it won't be till say the cave that you already have what you need and don't need a level up to make it through there.

bosses usually will have some special requirements, like with scales it's fucking everyone else in the village first. I think that covers everything.

[Favelor]

for thouse of u who DO want the HP bar. im sorry but i still have to say no. inseted of health take away the "cheat" i think that the fact that she is covered in cum and the points are reduced is enough. why add health to all of this if she needs to be fucked a few times.

[toddymon]

Well I think it may since its called a porn game one would assume that the game part of it would entail at least some kind of challenge, otherwise you may as well call it a porn walkthrough. though the first and second versions had all the cock stiffening sex I could want, there was still that little part of me that felt like I may as well be watching a porn tape. Yes it took away the need to have my hands on the keyboard, it still didn't have the same kind of effect that say cracklevania had on me, even if it was a bit annoying, I think that the one trunks is professing would actually make us want to go the extra mile. And though things aren't trying to kill you, they are however trying to rape you into submission, and krystal isn't really in a circumstance where she can say no and rape takes alot out of a woman last I heard.

Another idea I liked was one that katsu gave me. There was a meter and thefaster you pressed the more krystal resisted. Once one phase was done krystal would struggle free. However the sharpclaw would force her back down and initiate the next scene. you could press any button to fill the meter, but say you could either use X or P. if you used x to get free then the sharpclaw would anally rape krystal, but if you used P then fuck her pussy. Depending on how you look at it X could take up a certain amount of stamina and P could take up a certain amount as well and if you want you can simply get away by pressing any button other then those 2. Therefor if you choose to do nothing, you can see the scene as much as you want. The higer your level, the more choices and points you can use.

[trunks2585]

we really want to downplay the rape elements of this game, so the struggling by mashing a button and all that, will not be happening, regardless of the version we go with. personally I'd like the health bar, ebonizza doesn't want it, so you can see how even the team isn't in total agreement, the one thing we agree on , is to go with what the majority says.

[Oriandu]

This system is more true to the original game, basically every scene will still have a requirement, like someone else suggested, but the requirement will usually be based on abilities you have or will have. You gain abilities by leveling up. for example you start with hand job, blow job, and vaginal sex. after one level up you gain titfuck. so you'll be able to do the table scene after gaining a level while being able to do handjob and chairblow scenes right away. usually you'll gain an ability after every level up, and most of them will be reoccuring as the game goes on, but for the most part, you'll gain new abilities and use them right away, it won't be till say the cave that you already have what you need and don't need a level up to make it through there.

bosses usually will have some special requirements, like with scales it's fucking everyone else in the village first. I think that covers everything.

See, that makes a hell of a lot more sense than an HP bar. Unless it had an emphasis on rape, which let's face it after you deal with the Sharpclaw village shouldn't be an issue anymore, an HP bar wouldn't make a huge amount of sense. Skills and requirements trump an HP bar, especially considering health can be replenished while skills and requirements have to be earned. As another example given stated, need into a warehouse? If you have a high enough sexual skill, you can just go straight in through the front door after giving the guard a hummer or something.

[Thaedael]

Yet everyone is making parallel statements.

-Nay health bar it doesn't make sense in a sex game. It would unlock scenes and acts as a sort of puzzle.
-Yay puzzles and sex ecperience, it unlocks scenes and acts as a sort of puzzle

Why not hybrid it?

Either way, I want to see what the programmer comes up with because in the end it is he who does the work. Either way seeing the talent that can/will rally behind him it will be a great project either way.

[trunks2585]

Yet everyone is making parallel statements.

-Nay health bar it doesn't make sense in a sex game. It would unlock scenes and acts as a sort of puzzle.
-Yay puzzles and sex ecperience, it unlocks scenes and acts as a sort of puzzle

Why not hybrid it?

Either way, I want to see what the programmer comes up with because in the end it is he who does the work. Either way seeing the talent that can/will rally behind him it will be a great project either way.

It's true, both systems can work and have good and bad points. It's really just a matter of personal preference. I think it doesn't help that a lot of people are jaded from all of those 'run or rape' type of games.

A hybrid of the two though....could it be done? I'm tired as hell right now but I'd love to hear suggestions for a third option when i check in again.

[Renara]

I'm not sure the results of the poll are going to be all that helpful since the alternatives weren't discussed in the poll, and stamina is only a small part of a game-mechanic, it's not possible to judge properly purely on whether or not stamina is present. I could create a poll as to whether people want experience to be a requirement to proceed and I expect most people would just vote no to that as well.

The two main mechanics in question are preventative, and skilled.
Preventative is anything like an experience requirement, or specific ability that is required before you can start a scene with a character, it's nice and simple but the game mechanic pretty much just stops you from proceeding until you've met some requirements. One of the major downsides of it is that during scenes you may not have much to do, you just watch the scene then go back to the game. This is essentially how v0.1 and v0.2 currently work, but the thing is that both of these currently have a cheat button, which I believe is the only reason that people put up with it, as playing without the cheat button just gets very repetitive as you try to gain the experience, or ability or whatever, that you need to go on.

Skilled is actually much the same, except that the requirements to proceed aren't as strict, but of the available scenes you might find that some are more difficult than others. Difficulty is where stamina (or a similar feature) enters the picture, as a scene is completed only if you please the other character before you run out of stamina. The advantage is you get to do a bit more during the scene, and the choices allow you to "defeat" a character, it's also possible to attempt more difficult characters without having to spend time gaining experience or abilities to make things easier, as good choices can let you defeat a character even if they're a higher difficulty.

The point of the game-play is to try and strike a balance between controlling where the player can and cannot go and when, and giving the player something to do, so that the game is, well, actually a game. Stamina isn't a key point at all, it can be anything, but the point is that whatever it is needs to make a distinction between beating a scene to get to the next one, or simply watching one scene after another. Morality isn't a great fit for that as there would need to be a way to choose incorrectly for it to fit, and that wouldn't go well since players would end being penalised for wanting Krystal to be a total slut, or more innocent, which I think is best avoided, as morality will work best as something superficial (just for the fun of it).

[Oriandu]

Yet everyone is making parallel statements.

-Nay health bar it doesn't make sense in a sex game. It would unlock scenes and acts as a sort of puzzle.
-Yay puzzles and sex ecperience, it unlocks scenes and acts as a sort of puzzle

Why not hybrid it?

Either way, I want to see what the programmer comes up with because in the end it is he who does the work. Either way seeing the talent that can/will rally behind him it will be a great project either way.

It's true, both systems can work and have good and bad points. It's really just a matter of personal preference. I think it doesn't help that a lot of people are jaded from all of those 'run or rape' type of games.

A hybrid of the two though....could it be done? I'm tired as hell right now but I'd love to hear suggestions for a third option when i check in again.

A hybrid of the two could definitely work. Remove the whole requirement for health to get most scenes, keep the concept that with higher health/stamina you get a "bonus" scene, and then balance it simply by making it work so the lower your health the less experience you get. So while you don't require health to get the basic scene, having a high health bar will allow the player to get the better scene and level up quicker. That way you're making it a reward, not a punishment.

[Favelor]

lets see...since you guys want to cut down on the rape sences...why not try...starting off being raped then change to were krystla pleasues the hell out of Scales. then she is made a queen or something of high standards and cant be touched with out pramission. then its changed to were u choose to fuck them. if its needed add a heath bar but also add in regenaration! not like atumoic but like taking a bath gives health. this way your not in a total pile of shit. i didnt like how in "K fox and the magic sword" she lost health every time she was fucked. i think it should be if your cummed IN then its 10 points (on a scales of 100) 5 if cummed on. if the "cheat" is taken out then we're forced to take a bath to geath our health back. this way the game is longer and more fun. while keeping it kinda difficult.

[zergas]

Doesn't seem like too bad an idea, actually seems down right interesting. Doesn't really have the problems from kay fox since it replenishes your stamina for every scene, you don't actively lose any stamina while making a choice, and you don't lose too much by failing a scene (you just are sent back to the hub of that area). You'll have to grind to get higher stamina, but that's a problem for all the ideas really. You need more experience so you have to grind, you need more skill in vaginal sex so you have to grind, you need more stamina so you have to grind. I like the idea of combining the skills and the stamina, maybe having the player get skill points from levels to add to skills manually and having said skills impact the amount of stamina a choice in a scene costs.

The idea of bonus scenes with large stamina costs sounds like a good idea and gives the player something to search for and look forward to in areas they have already been in. The idea of boss scenes having different paths to take with different overall stamina costs seems fine too. It would allow the player to possibly get passed a boss without as much grinding, if they knew the correct choices, and if they don't really mind grinding they can go through and maybe get some bonus scenes as an extra prize.

The one thing I don't fully understand is how the morality system will be used in this context. Going by what little I remember of the attitudes demo basically what will happen is you make a choice in a scene, which then removes however many stamina the choice costs. Then I guess the morality options would pop up and allow the player to choose between the different versions of the choice (ex: user chooses the handjob option, stamina looses x points, user then can choose between naughty and nice versions of the handjob). Or I could be over complicating the whole thing and you could just make specific choices good or bad (handjob good, blowjob neutral, deepthroat bad), which would probably be a lot less work than the other way.

[trunks2585]

Ok, I'm not saying this to be a dick, but please don't suggest anything for how the story should progress, we've known how we want the story to play out for a long while now. For the most part, it follows playshapes original, with some additions and changes here and there, and really taking off after the end of the cave section going into the dark woods.

Really only the arwing scene in the intro i consider to be the only real rape part, everything else krystal has to do, granted she's reluctant but still chooses to do it.

Let's try and keep discussions on this thread about gameplay mechanics like what you got into in the second half of your post. Still I think we've gathered enough data. I'm sorry to, at the moment, the 21 people (myself included) but looks like we'll be going mostly with gaining abilities as you level up and puzzle solving. So the question shouldn't be 'how do you do a health bar and not make it suck' but rather 'how do we take away the risk of draining our health, but still keep a challenge to the game.'

Of course there's always the possiblity of a third option. Oriandu's suggestion has merit to it, the only problem is that the bar is there for the sake of putting it there, it doesn't really have any influence besides offering a bonus scene right after, and that kinda clashes with our idea of coming back to previous areas much later in the game to do bonus scenes.

[Thaedael]

I think you hit a particularly important side~note trunks. I agree, things should not be done for the sake of doing, especially when it comes to the length of the game. A good example is an xbox game my brother likes, I found it interesting also and the mechanics had merit, but it was the repetitiveness of play and length that bothered me. I don't care if a game is long or short, but so long as the game is fullfilling, a short well thought out game has as much merit as a branching long game. If you have certain mechanics, don't duplicate them to make the game longer. An example is diffusing bombs, maybe one or two is fine as a plot device, but having to defuse 500 of them in a level just to add length is not good.

The whole thread as I mentioned before has been a bit of a misnomer. It isn't a health bar as much as it is a stamina bar. For those of you who have had sex, you know there are things that take little effort and are fast, and others that are very long, intense, and energy draining. This "health bar" isn't a health bar so much as it is a stamina bar. Ren made it sound like the intention was for you to manage the stamina bar through options you chose, and by trying to maximize this to advance the plot. This can have many applications, like unlocking sequences by having the right managing skills for this. An example off the top of my head would be if there is a guard protecting a warehouse. To let yourself in you could engage in sexual activities, such as a handjob. If you want to get in with minimal stamina loss you have to gauge what would satisfy him, say only a handjob and try to click a "cum" button. However if you judged wrong it would force you into another scene of the guard doing something and you lose a little bit of stamina but the scene ended. However if you did it right, you could do other things inside the warehouse that would not have been available. This kind of reasoning would lead to many options that a player can come back to, so that he can find more stuff later.

Trunks on the other hand is pushing more for a traditional rpg element of solving puzzles. I don't know exactly what he has in mind (hopefully not the old "find this key to open this door" kind of mechanic) but it could lead to interesting options. However the focus is more on doing side things to get sex. Personally I like Ren's idea more, since it has more of a managing side to get what you want. Trunks idea however also has merits depending what kind of puzzle ideas he has. The problem I see is that once you get the puzzles completed, the sex is not as engaging as opposed to an above scenario. Ok I got "x" now I can do "y" [insert sex scene] done. This method requires fun puzzles and when the sex does come it needs to be well worth it (which by katsu's and ron's work this is assured).

In the thread were this witch hunt was unleashed (too much dawn of war retribution, thinking like an inquisitor now), they both agreed to disagree and reach a compromise by asking the public. I think instead of this (since no offense to the public there is too many of us, asking too much, without any knowledge on how to do any of the aspects of the program, and not willing to learn or put the time and effort into it) you should actually just sit down and talk to eachother. Both ideas have merits, and if you hybridize both ideas you get something interest.

Take the above scenario again:
Krystal's arwing was destroyed, and in an effort to find a piece to fix her arwing she learns from blowing the local tavern wench that there are back up pieces of the kind she needs. This place is a warehouse. Further scenes with the wench (instead of half assing it) would give you a key you could use but have no idea what it is for.

To get in you could blow the guard. You notice you have a little less stamina from before (and its not just one way there will be ways to refill it I assume which could unlock even more potential plot wise) so you decide to get it over with quickly. If you just do a cocktease it won't be enough, but potentially going all the way is an over investment of stamina. Either way you get in afterward and find the piece you need. YET LO AND BEHOLD you notice there is a locked door in the back that has muffled sounds coming from it. Yet you don't know how to get in (enter "secret" key) you unlock the door noticing the symbol above the door matches the symbol on the key. You go inside and find a captive lizard girl or something and etc. This could leave to further secrets, or further scenes, etc.

The limit is the imagination, and the technical know how of your programmer.

So hopefully that is something to consider XD. Some days I feel like a LoK member contributing ideas like this, other days I just feel like a bored man with too much time to think with at 4 am.

[Oriandu]

Ok, I'm not saying this to be a dick, but please don't suggest anything for how the story should progress, we've known how we want the story to play out for a long while now. For the most part, it follows playshapes original, with some additions and changes here and there, and really taking off after the end of the cave section going into the dark woods.

Really only the arwing scene in the intro i consider to be the only real rape part, everything else krystal has to do, granted she's reluctant but still chooses to do it.

Let's try and keep discussions on this thread about gameplay mechanics like what you got into in the second half of your post. Still I think we've gathered enough data. I'm sorry to, at the moment, the 21 people (myself included) but looks like we'll be going mostly with gaining abilities as you level up and puzzle solving. So the question shouldn't be 'how do you do a health bar and not make it suck' but rather 'how do we take away the risk of draining our health, but still keep a challenge to the game.'

Of course there's always the possiblity of a third option. Oriandu's suggestion has merit to it, the only problem is that the bar is there for the sake of putting it there, it doesn't really have any influence besides offering a bonus scene right after, and that kinda clashes with our idea of coming back to previous areas much later in the game to do bonus scenes.

It's not a complete idea, as I came up with it in literally 30 seconds, but the HP bar will always be there for a single reason, as there's no threat of death or failure in the game. That's not to say it would be completely pointless, as health could increase with every level you gain, and requirements for bonus scenes could be a certain percentage of your health, and certain other skills. If you want back tracking to be a part of the game, then you should follow the Metroid style of design. Go back when you've gotten further ahead and have unlocked more skills, power ups and items, there's no set rule that dictates the only way to unlock a bonus scene is by having high HP.

[trunks2585]

Trust me Thaedael, I understand what you are saying, and I do like it, my idea wasn't quite as creative as yours, and your version is more interesting (pick the right scene to proceed). yes it is a stamina bar rather than a health bar, I think most of us know that and i should have said as much in the thread title, but really it's splitting hairs over what we call it.

The problem really is, it doesn't matter how easy or difficult we make managing your stamina gain/loss, a lot of people just simply don't seem interested in it. Two members on the team wanted to stay way from a stamina/health system, one is ebonizza as you all know, the other is ptoon-t who's been in favor of more puzzle solving than stamina management.

At the end of the day, a lot of people just want to jerk off to their porn without having to worry about anything else in the scene.

As far as working with Ren goes, that's kinda impossible. I've pretty much quit. He thinks I'm more interested in playing 'political games' about leadership on the forum, and i can't take him seriously as a leader anymore. I'm working with Ebonizza, katsu, RP, and hopefully 3-y. Ren's talked about giving us our own section on the forums to do our own thing, and i'm fine with that.

[Thaedael]

The hairs I am splitting however is that the people that are more in favor with puzzle solving aren't acknowledging that the stamina bar can be used as a puzzle.

As for what happens between you and ren, keep it behind closed doors because the people reading don't need to know. Once you have it all cleared up then come out and say what the decision was but by openly criticizing in what could be considered an aggressive tone isn't helping the situation.

[trunks2585]

I can talk to the new team about it, see if i can sell ebonizza on the 'choose the right posisiton to not drain all your stamina' idea. He's one of the one's most opposed to stamina usage, if he changes his mind we could probably get just about anyone too. I know there's a handful of situations were your idea we already have set up in terms of encounters.

As for with ren, it is resolved, I'm no longer working on his game, i'm working with ebon, katsu and RP.

[ronpepper]

I can talk to the new team about it, see if i can sell ebonizza on the 'choose the right posisiton to not drain all your stamina' idea. He's one of the one's most opposed to stamina usage, if he changes his mind we could probably get just about anyone too. I know there's a handful of situations were your idea we already have set up in terms of encounters.

As for with ren, it is resolved, I'm no longer working on his game, i'm working with ebon, katsu and RP.

This. Trunks knows of what he speaks. I've said flat out that I'm flexible on this issue, as I am with most stuff. And I'm glad of how the new team is working together, and we're pretty tight considering how newly we are formed.