2D vs 3D

[Zeus Kabob]

I gripe excessively about this matter, and I'm not sure what others' opinions are. I'll give you two of my best examples for why to stick to 2D in certain situations.

First and foremost is Fire Emblem. For those who don't know the series, Fire Emblem is a strategic combat game. In the campaign, the player moves it's units in order to complete a mission objective, usually killing a boss. Units can attack each other, starting an animation for the two of them.

Looking at the animations for the DS game Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon and the Game Boy Advance game Fire Emblem: Rekka no Ken, I see a distinct difference in style, and am personally a fan of the GBA style rather than the DS style.

FE: Shadow Dragon:


FE: Rekka no Ken:


Another example is Pokemon. When Pokemon went from the GBA to the DS, it was rendered in 3D. When I look at the game on the GBA, it looks good and everything looks intentional graphically. When I look at it on the DS, it looks pixellated and awful. The reason isn't because the resolution of the GBA was better, it's because the GBA placed each of its pixels consciously. I don't understand why Nintendo decided to take the game to 3D on the DS even though it would look like this.

In general, my point is that if putting the game in 3D doesn't add anything to the graphical style of the game (or worse, takes something away), then it isn't a good thing.

Anyway, this is my take on this situation, and I'd like to hear yours!

[QuizmasterBos]

Honestly I don't take 3d looks bad, it was just that the DS wasn't powerful enough to show that well in my opinion.
I think a Pokemon for the 3DS would look loads better than the DS ones.

Shadow Dragon wasn't as good in the fighting mechanic as the GBA ones because the battling seemed slower.
The awesome moves they pull off in the GBA versions are quick and smooth.
Shadow Dragon just makes it seems slow and choppy.

So, yes I do agree with your statement to a certain degree.

[LuftMallow]

The Shadow Dragon Remake sprites look like they took a 3d render and converted the frames of animation to make them, like what Donkey Kong Country did. The only thing I see that looks off though is that the cape looks way too stiff in movement and lacks animation frames. If you want to see an aesthetically dull Fire Emblem game, the one on the Gamecube makes every bad decision. The overuse of dark green and brown in a series with brightly colored armor just clashes with what you think of it. I didn't play the Wii game, but it looked the same in previews as that.The only duller console strategy game I've seen is Zoids Assault for XBox360, but that's a whole other story.

[Zeus Kabob]

Quizmaster: I agree with you completely. If the Pokemon games didn't "look" pixellated, then I wouldn't be complaining. On the DS Pokemon games, they've taken advantage of the 3D rendering to do various things that 2D couldn't do, and that would be great with higher resolution. I think a Pokemon on the 3DS could be pretty cool, as well.

As for Shadow Dragon, I agree with you. Rekka no Ken is quick and exciting, and I saw the 3D games as trying to be more realistic, and in doing so taking a lot of interest away from the battling.

Luftmallow: Hmm, that might be true, or that sprite sheet might have done the 2D conversion. I know I've seen one Fire Emblem game that had 3D battlefields with 3D character models, and had them battle. It was that I was trying to demonstrate.

I've played the Wii game Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn, and though I appreciated the scenery being integrated well into the battle scenes (if you can shoot through or over a wall, the wall is in the battle), it was not very exciting, and the battle animations were boring at best.

I want to recapitulate, however, that I don't disrespect 3D games, I only disrespect when games foolishly jump on the 3D bandwagon. I would still avidly play 2D Fire Emblem games if they continued to keep up the awesome animation quality and added new things to the game.

[Zender_Solarheart]

Honestly, I think the transition between 2D and 3D has the best chance for success if the gameplay is adjusted to fit the addition of depth to the other two dimensions of length and height. In a game like Fire Emblem, the ability to implement such adjustments is rather minimal; the grid-based maps and battle system that has become a key part of FE's gameplay just doesn't allow for much (if any) change between the 2D and 3D realms, and what changes are made are mostly unimportant to the gameplay itself.

If you want two examples of how I think the 2D-3D jump was handled beautifully, I'd elect Super Mario 64, and Metroid Prime.

Mario 64 took everything we know and love about Mario platforming, and re-imagined it with the extra dimension's new opportunities. While some classic tricks like jump-chaining ended up suffering a bit (though thankfully re-implemented in the Mario Galaxy games), Mario's signature jumping abilities were amped up to amazing degrees. The worlds themselves were also visually stunning for the game's time, and really added to that sense of adventure that people love about the franchise.

Metroid Prime was one of those games that had people worried at first; hell, a lot of the skeptical types were concerned that the game would end up being a disgrace to the Metroid franchise as a whole (but alas, that ended up being Metroid Other M's role...). When it came out, however, the game clearly presented itself as a great 3D adaptation of what everyone loved about Super Metroid, plus several unique features that made it even more fun to play. Yes, the Space Jump Boots were downgraded to a mere double-jump, but that was for purposes of good design, and it still kept a good sense of exploration intact despite that. Not to mention that the sheer girth and power of all the bosses made each of them a blast to fight (minus Flaahgra, who was more of a puzzle than a boss battle, imo).

So yeah, if there's something to be learned from games like those, it's this: treat jumping from 2D to 3D, as you would approach moving to a new region. Don't try to make things just "like they used to be," but instead try to take what you could do with 2D, and re-design it around the 3D environment, instead of trying to do it the other way around.

[Zeus Kabob]

Completely agreed, Zender.

Mario 64 was an amazing game. The game feel was great, and the game took full advantage of 3D.

As for Metroid Prime, since I didn't play Metroid or Super Metroid before playing Metroid Prime (and I still haven't played Super Metroid...), I may have a biased opinion, but I thought the game was amazing. The lock-on system was tough to get used to, and sometimes moving view was frustrating, but the environments were stunning and the story was gripping.

As a side note, I'd like to throw in that I liked Metroid Prime 3 a lot as well. Many gamers scoff at motion control gaming, but I think that Metroid Prime 3 used it well.

[Thaedael]

I like what they did when they made the shift from advance wars style to the days of ruin style in gba. they left the graphics intentionally gritty and drab, even though they were highly distorted and pixelated. I also like the original cartoony style that made the game so cute in the first place. Sometimes it works, other times it doesn't.

[Inferi]

2D is better, in my opinion.

[Zender_Solarheart]

As a side note, I'd like to throw in that I liked Metroid Prime 3 a lot as well. Many gamers scoff at motion control gaming, but I think that Metroid Prime 3 used it well.

I did think they were kinda creative with Prime 3's motion controls, though they seemed mostly confined to the Grapple Lasso, aiming, and those terminal-ish things. Not to say that it was a bad game, by any means, but I just felt like it had more potential than they utilized. To be fair, though, it was rather early in the Wii's shelf life.

As a Metroid fan, I like Prime 1 most for its exploration factor, Prime 2 for the dynamic boss battle designs (Quadraxis makes you use almost every ability in the game to beat it), and Prime 3 for its clever puzzles. Prime Hunters doesn't count, because that was practically "Haloid: Alimbics are the new Forerunners."

[Zeus Kabob]

Totally with you there, Zender. I loved the exploration in Prime 1; I spent hours wandering around Phendrana Drifts (beautiful music...) and loved it. The environments were varied and interesting, and there were hidden things as well. I didn't like Prime 2 as much, probably solely because of Hard Mode boss battles. For example, the Boost boss is hellish on Hard Mode, because it was so hard to predict its trajectory. Prime 3 I enjoyed because of its simplicity and the ease with which I could shoot things and look around. It had some cool puzzles, but I really had no trouble getting through the game.

[Zender_Solarheart]

I didn't like Prime 2 as much, probably solely because of Hard Mode boss battles. For example, the Boost boss is hellish on Hard Mode, because it was so hard to predict its trajectory.

Honestly, Boost Guardian's pretty much the hardest boss in the game. Not only are there no safe zones to shield you from the corrosive air, but the boss itself generally takes quite a while to bring down. Combine that with its highly unpredictable boost-ramming, the endless Inglets shooting at you the whole fight, and the overall intensity of the battle...yeah, even Emperor Ing doesn't nearly compare on difficulty. As if fighting that thing on Hard mode wasn't bad enough, some people use a sequence-breaking trick to fight him on Hard without the Dark Suit. As much as I love the Prime games, I'm not nearly masochistic enough to try that one.

But we're getting off-track. Could somebody please post their thoughts on 2D vs 3D games, since I already posted mine?

[BlueLight]

What do you think of Xcom 2d sprites to the 3d models they have in the fraxis version.

[Harcin]

To be honest, I think either one can be done well, but because 2D's been around for much longer, and takes less work to do well, it's done better on average. Also, it adds a retro look that some people might like and some might not. Personally, I like the 2D stuff more, but like I said, it's just done better most of the time, so that might be why.