Another Tail ( News Update April 10, 2014 )

[demi]

I found turn-based combat gets boring and repetitive when you feel no sense of progression and using the SAME attacks over and over. If I use RPG as my model, I'll probably borrow Xenogears combat system... for some reason, that system never gets old with me. Also, I would use a time base model for determining whose turn it is... so, instead of going 1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4.... if say 2 was really really fast, it could go 1,2,3,4,2,1,3,2,4,2,1,3,4,2... and I would never set the game up such the player feels like he's waiting an eternity to move. (and definitely no random battles!)

As someone who has been turned off RPGs since the PS2 era, I can definitely agree with most of these statements. After thinking about it, reading the comments, and seeing the close polls, I think if you heavily streamline the RPG elements, you can make something that everyone will be happy with.
My actual suggestion is to make a Puzzle-Platformer with turn-based combat, for a couple reasons.

Things people hate about RPGs:
Combat:
-Repetitive (gain levels to gain skills that do higher damage, with no gameplay change)
-Slow turn-based pace
-Menu-based combat
-Grinding

Navigation
-Clicking through enormous amounts of dialogue trees
-Boring overworld & menus
-Disconnect between overworld & combat screen

and of course, random battles.

However, a bad platformer can be just as frustrating and/or boring to play as a bad RPG.
You're right about how platformers require a lot more finesse and are very hard to pull off.
Think about how much effort has to be put into balancing level design and combat mechanics and understand why most platformers see 1 finished level before quitting production. Not to mention, turn-based combat gives you better control over the animations, which is honestly why most people would be interested in playing this game in the first place.

So here's my suggestion:
Keep the general gameplay a platformer (running, jumping, dodging, etc), which turns into a turn-based tactical mode whenever you encounter an enemy (on the same level, rather than using a seperate battle screen). This opens a plethora of options, like giving the opportunity for the player to bypass combat by disabling enemies (pushing a boulder, using the environment, etc), or use stealth-platformer gameplay (taking out an enemy before they can engage you).

What do you think?

[FMC]

RPG-Style combat would be the easiest (for the player) to handle multiple enemies / PC Characters.

Adventure combat like Metroid probably would be the smoothest to implement.

And fighter combat... would be interesting and more unique.

However, there are also multiple ways to implement RPG combat, and it seems that some people forget that. There's more than 'sit there and wait for your turn' combat. Or, you could even do that in the way of Hikari Senki (or whatever that game was) and Final Fantasy 7 -- where you had a time bar that told you when your (and [maybe] your opponents') turn is. And if you just sit there, the enemy will keep attacking you over and over, but when you go into a screen, the 'time progression' will pause.

Then, you have other ways to do it, too. I'll shamelessly steal these ideas to tell them to you. These would likely be very difficult to code in, but could pay off very handsomely as well.

You have Star Ocean (specifically Star Ocean, Till the End of Time), where you control one player and the other two are computer-controlled based off 'AI Options' you give them, like 'Act in a well-balanced manner' or 'focus your attack,' or even 'Don't use Skills.' Mages and melee had different options for them. What it was, was that you basically ran around an area that seemed to have similar designs to the place you contacted the enemy on the overworld. The battle was in real-time, but utilized an item menu (which would pause the battle) to use Symbology (magic), items, swapping equipment mid-battle, changing AI tactics, escaping, and a little more. However, attacks were done by pressing a button at a short or long range from the enemy, and skills were done by holding said button down. It's a fun battle concept -- check it out if you haven't already.

Next, we have the Grandia III battle system. It's a bit of a revolutionized way of using the 'Time Based Turn' system, where in the upper right, there was an 'IP Gauge' that was in the shape of a circle. Little headshots of your characters, and little things that told you what kind of enemy (beast, lizard, Verse, etc.) with A, B, etc, showed the enemy. When you hit the 'act' part of the circle, you chose an attack (or guard / move) for your character. Then, they performed it. There was a bit of a delay for some attacks, where they'd go through an area that was like an 'attack preparation' area, and it was here where certain attacks could be 'cancelled,' sending them back out of that zone and having to go choose their attack again. It was an interesting mix of 'normal' RPG elements and its own flair. Again, check out the combat style if you haven't already.

It might be hard to implement 'sex moves,' if you have them, into the first idea, but the second idea had 'special moves' that usually took time to do (unless they were the 'cancel' moves, since there were five upgrades each special move could get if you used them enough -- Power, speed, Power, Recovery, Power. And yes, the power is meant to be in there three times), so you could implement 'sex moves' that way. Not that I even expect you to use these two methods, but it's something to think about and maybe steal an idea or two from... since stealing the whole thing would be hell to code. xD

Now, for ideas that wouldn't be a headache to code. xD

Perhaps you could do a 'tactics' style game, like Disgaea, Final Fantasy Tactics, Suikoden Tactics, etc. Those tend to be fun, especially those in the 'Disgaea' or 'Sukoden Tactics' area, where you have things on the ground that do certain things to your character. In Suikoden Tactics, it was 'elements' that you or your opponent could throw on the ground, or just find there naturally, and would power up and heal you, or degrade and hurt you, depending on your character's inner element. Disgaea had the 'pyramids' as I liked to call them, that changed effects on similarly coloured tiles that you could throw or destroy to change the colour of the tiles it was resting on into its colours (or do nothing if it was the same colour) and damage enemies (and teammates) it hit.

Doing it that way could make for some interesting encounters, and give ways for you to implement your other characters you had ideas for. It'd also make sex-based combat more interesting, too... and I don't think anyone has ever made a sex-based Tactic game here... not that I've seen, anyway, and where you control a main female character (if they have).

[Lucky777]

and definitely no random battles!

Thank ALL the deities.

The PAA will not have the same "combat depth" as the fighter.

Hmm. Changed my vote, then, although I can't stress enough that IF the fights are going to be taking place in like 2 or 3 limited screens, like in a traditional fighting game, you gotta count mine as a vote for the side-scroller instead. I do like sidescrollers, as evidenced not only by my enjoyment of the Rockman X and Zero and ZX series, but ALSO by my enjoyment of GP's Sakyubasu etc - but I really liked the potential I saw in dem battle animations for Krystal, and Ideally I'd like to see a platformer that included "moves" like you can pull off in fairy fighting and whatnot.

Also, read update #10 toward the bottom concerning key-binds

!

I WAS OUTFOXED BY YOUR NINJUTSU

[AnotherArrow]

Keep the general gameplay a platformer (running, jumping, dodging, etc), which turns into a turn-based tactical mode whenever you encounter an enemy (on the same level, rather than using a seperate battle screen). This opens a plethora of options, like giving the opportunity for the player to bypass combat by disabling enemies (pushing a boulder, using the environment, etc), or use stealth-platformer gameplay (taking out an enemy before they can engage you).

Its like you're reading my mind.
Yes, and just to be extra clear with everyone else.
The general game play, that is, the adventuring portion of the game will be a side-scrolling PLATFORMER! What this poll is asking is the combat portion. Demi's post summed up my thoughts on how to implement it nicely.

Now....

Things people hate about RPGs:
Combat:
-Repetitive (gain levels to gain skills that do higher damage, with no gameplay change)
-Slow turn-based pace
-Menu-based combat
-Grinding

Navigation
-Clicking through enormous amounts of dialogue trees
-Boring overworld & menus
-Disconnect between overworld & combat screen

and of course, random battles.

Hmm.. I just updated the first post, read the "more info" spoiler for option 1... it may address a few of these... and maybe even raise a few more questions.

FMC, you've got it somewhat reverse, at least in my mind.
Implementing a tactics style game on an isometric battlefield feels like it would be a nightmare to code.... then again, now that I think about it, maybe not. However, this style would further the disconnect that some have expressed. Thou, I not opposed to the idea. I love a challenge!

My current reference for RPG combat is more based on Xenogears, but that will be completely up for debate.

As for sex-in-combat... I should mention that I feel only Option 1 and Option 3 have the hidden potential for it. My game is not going to reward failure with the character getting fucked... nor is that character's purpose to go around fucking the enemy. This eliminates option 2... but also generally speaking, sex-in-combat is not going to happen except a few rare and/or special cases. Krystal needs some mana to preform X, thus grabs so-in-so for some fun, while others provide cover. Think Dragon Pink, for those who know their hentai.

[Lucky777]

If your game isn't going to reward failure with the character getting fucked, I do have to wonder why you bother with the "torn suit" animation.

Seemed like the enemies would have been the ones to tear the suit, and if that were the case, I'd have expected them to go the rest of the way as well.

Might just be another case of assumptions making an ass of mr Mumptions, though, and maybe her suit got torn by rocks while she was climbing a mountain or something.

[AnotherArrow]

If by "torn suit" you are referring to her having only a bra and pants on, that's simply a continuation of the events of AT Version 2.
After Krystal crashes, she takes her top portion of her suit off to treat her wounds, she then is ambush and must run... thus why her top is still off. (It is really tied up on her lower back, since its a one-piece suit.)

The "unzip" version is going to be used during a sex-scene with Fox during a flash back on the space-station. Where Fox is fondling Krystal's breasts while ramming his gun in from behind

[Lucky777]

I gotta stop listening to Mr Mumptions so much maaaaan

[maximilianos]

wuhuuu, it's a tie again thanks to me

[wintercoat]

In regards to the issue you pointed out for the action platformer version, you could always make some enemies require certain attacks, or combos of attacks from different people, in order to kill them. For example, an enemy that is impossible to damage, but can be frozen by one character, then shattered by another. It works the other way too. You could have the characters either immune to, or take less damage from, certain types of attacks, forcing the player to use different characters for different fights.

[KaTsuO_O]

"My game is not going to reward failure with the character getting fucked...", "a sex-scene with Fox during a flash back". I really like the direction you're going here, it makes sense out of a game design stand point. It is an example of that rape is not the only way to incorporate sex in this kind of game.

I was quite impressed with the different combinations of moves, especially first when I saw that you could walk, dash forward and jump backwards. It seems like the combat could be pretty compelling with many different moves to choose from, rather than just a few. I think it would be a shame if the combat system is going to be turn based for that reason. There is even potential for a great combo system as well, where you have to mix up the attacks to deal more damage and so on. Of course, programming a decent Ai is not a simple task, so it may be hard to pull it off good enough. If you do however, then you could have something great.

The animations seems pretty good at first, but when I look closer, I see that they are pretty lousy. Was the idea to put them together quickly and then later on fix them and make sure that they all look good? A great example is the shot animation which lacks any amount of kick, she just wiggles it around. It clearly lacks body motion. However, most of the other is far better and they're better than most of the stuff on this forum anyways.

You can feel the power of the gun now.

Spoiler (click to show/hide):

Click to Play
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Shot Animation.swf [ 72.55 KiB | Viewed 3601 times ]

I'd also like to touch more on the implementation of sex scenes in the game. The flash backs is a great idea, but don't think only flash backs would be that good. Not that I believe that that's the only plan for sexual content. So what more situations could there be? One idea would be to have villages and other places you pass where there is optional scenes, and you can gain something for doing it. It could also be a risk reward situation where you would lose a set amount of stamina for each scene, and not for how long you watch it. Stamina could determine how strong your attacks are at the moment. So wouldn't just get handed the scene without paying any price.

[Tovi]

Hmm... Even though I am still more in favor of the complete platforming-idea of combat I am beginning to understand the task from other angles. Just like has been brought up - RPGs in general tends to get boring much faster than a good platformer. Note: Good. This sort of platformer is achieved through much more tedious work than a general RPG.

For the simple fact that I now know what I as a voter voted for putting you through I guess I can live with it being only partial platformer, whereas combat is handled in turns *shivers*.

But consider the game-experience that the platformer-like combat would deliver to the player!
All those animations could be utilized in a much more balanced yet complex way and only implementing those moves would pretty much do it as to player attacks. There could be so many combos!
And I personally think that even though Gore definitely made the concept of turn-based RPG work good I really do not like turn-based combat only for the simple fact that they are completely fourth wall breaking for the player and acts as a distraction from the game experience itself. Though a good shortcut in coding, a big loss in game result. :I

After a second wave of heavy contemplation after reading the posts in favor of said turn-based combat my vote will remain platformer.

And in case you did not read my previous post I would be glad if you did as it too is related to this subject.

[AnotherArrow]

The animations seems pretty good at first, but when I look closer, I see that they are pretty lousy. Was the idea to put them together quickly and then later on fix them and make sure that they all look good? A great example is the shot animation which lacks any amount of kick, she just wiggles it around. It clearly lacks body motion. However, most of the other is far better and they're better than most of the stuff on this forum anyways.

Yes, I pulled a short cut on the skill-attack for the sake of just having something done. I'll definitly go back and implement your version when I have time. Love it!

I'd also like to touch more on the implementation of sex scenes in the game. The flash backs is a great idea, but don't think only flash backs would be that good. Not that I believe that that's the only plan for sexual content. So what more situations could there be? One idea would be to have villages and other places you pass where there is optional scenes, and you can gain something for doing it. It could also be a risk reward situation where you would lose a set amount of stamina for each scene, and not for how long you watch it. Stamina could determine how strong your attacks are at the moment. So wouldn't just get handed the scene without paying any price.

(Just so you know, I've retype the following about 3 times because I didn't want to spoil the story yet for everyone). There will be plenty of sexual encounters. Some will happen as part of the story, such as the one during the flashback. But yes, as you mentioned, other will be obtained as part of side quest that will be available. I'm not much into the risk/reward setup. If sex occurs, its a reward for completing something. I have a much different idea for stats and resource management in the game for all three options that I'll go into once I've figured out what I'm doing.

In regards to the issue you pointed out for the action platformer version, you could always make some enemies require certain attacks, or combos of attacks from different people, in order to kill them. For example, an enemy that is impossible to damage, but can be frozen by one character, then shattered by another. It works the other way too. You could have the characters either immune to, or take less damage from, certain types of attacks, forcing the player to use different characters for different fights.

Yea, I've already though about doing something like that. The only problem I have with this is that I may be swapping too much. "Here comes monster C, swap to Y, freeze C, swap to Z, kill C, swap back to X cuz X moves the fastest, oh no, new monster C! and monster D!, swap to...". All of a sudden, swapping characters is the core mechanic... not the fighting. This issue will also present itself in a Range vs Melee situation as well. I'm going to sleep on this more... its a real balancing issue I'm having with the platformer option.

@ Valpas
I'm probably going to have to make a mock-up version of each type so that you can determine if it really that game breaking. I'll put that on my to-do list since I'm more focused now on getting more characters made right now. ( KaTsu, expect to see more half-ass animations in these mock-ups )

[nippers]

Looks great, the character is much sexier than previous LOK versions, keep it up can't wait to see a full game

[3DMaster]

Okay, so I'm playing the current version and I have a problem: I kill the spiders, the very first fight, (I don't seem to be able to do anything but attack) and when the spiders are dead, the screen goes black... and stays black. The game doesn't react to anything. The only option I have left is closing flash player.

[Tovi]

Ok, thanks for letting us know about the side-characters, this is improtant to know in order to reach a complete suggestion for any of the combat systems.
As usual I will be debate for alternative number 2.

When you think about this there are not too many ways to implement this feature, though some ideas are as you said, the summon-like thing where the character simply poofs out of the blue and makes the move.

Other than that, maybe the possibility to change character between stage? This would flesh out the game greatly as you for certain puzzles would have to return to certain levels as certain characters.

Another Idea is maybe swapping character just like that in the stage, maybe some fancy animation like parachute dropping down and taking krystals place?

After thinking about it I am most in favor of changing character-concept outside of the stage/area, but yet again- I do not know enough of your concepts to really speak on the matter.

Something that I came to think of after posting this once is this really spaced out idea that probably neither makes sense logic-wise or code-wise.
Ponder this - The side characters are of equal importance, so why not have them running along with you? Maybe as CPUs (WhichwouldbetoohardtocodesowhyamIevensayingthis) Or maybe in a back-layer of the stage, fighting along with you in the scenery and once you want to swap control the character simply jumps out of the background and takes the currently controlled characters place? They could follow around in the background by climbing or running along with you in the background, maybe flying around above you in the background in their jets?
this is just me having one of these silly ideas, don't mind me! XD

[AnotherArrow]

Okay, so I'm playing the current version and I have a problem: I kill the spiders, the very first fight, (I don't seem to be able to do anything but attack) and when the spiders are dead, the screen goes black... and stays black. The game doesn't react to anything. The only option I have left is closing flash player.

Sounds like you are playing version 2 of AT which was never finished...

@Valpas
Just to let everyone know... by the end of the first act of this story, you will have 3 Characters in your party. Maybe 5 or 6 if I go a little further into what I have planned... not quite sure yet.
HOWEVER!
All together, over the course of the game I have planned... I'm pushing over 20 major characters! >_<
Now... not all will be in your party at the same time. Some may even be cut. Other may never be controllable. I may even add more if I hear about some good suggestions. So, I say 20... but it could be just 10... time will tell.

Regardless of which method I implement, the player will only have access to 3 characters at a time in combat (maybe 5/6 in a RPG... maybe).

I have been considering having two characters shadowing/following the player controlled character, kind of like Secret of Mana, but that wasn't a platformer, so it may not work as well...

Honestly now, I'm personally leaning between RPG and Fighter, as a platformer just isn't working out in my head... I could make stages that are dedicated to certain characters, but... no... that is not what I want to do... they are suppose to be working as a team... or I could just change the entire story to just follow Krystal... no... forget I even suggested that.

Well, there is still plenty of time to come up with ideas. I've got a long way to go on my characters, and I have plenty of time to continue pondering out my ideas.

[Tovi]

What I am mostly wondering is how you will handle the transition between platforming and rpg, it seems fairly weird to me, because you will either have to make them follow you around during the platforming in order for them to be able to appear in the team rpg-battles, or make them randomly poof out of nowhere to assist you. Either way will be tedious, and in the end it would work for the platformed-styel combat as well, as the thing I brought up as far as I have gathered, is the same for all combat systems- where do the assist in battles come from, and how.

[AnotherArrow]

Character Sheets Updated. Added new Krystal sheet and a work in progress of the Warrior Razorclaw, Elene. Took me a while to figure out what face I wanted for the lizard girls, but settled on tracing Kuja's Ascension head shape as a base. Hope Kuja doesn't mind.

@Valpas
I dreamt last night all the answers to making the platforming work, but then I woke up and forgot 98.73% of it... seriously...*face-palm*... it was a good dream though... I think.

To answer your question... it much more of a stylistic approach. Depending on whether the RPG and Fighter combat takes place on the actual adventuring stage or on the combat stage will make a difference in how I implement the transition. Whereas the PAA has no transition, so I have to figure out something... well...
Okay, that was still a vague answer, if at all.

*wave hand* "These are not the droids you are looking for. Move along."

I do have some new ideas that I'll pen out later. I'm now leaning between RPG and Platforming... 1) because there isn't much love for a fighter in this community as the polls show and 2) that dream I mentioned, it was GLORIOUS! I think it was because it combined parts of the fighter into the platformer and... and... ... .. . . bah... off to bed, maybe I'll have the same dream.

[FMC]

You know what I just remembered?

Quest 64. It had a good way to go from exploration to combat, then back again, without ever going into a 'loading state' that brings you to a 'traditional' RPG fight screen. Whenever you encounter a fight, they simply penned you into a certain area, which I can't remember if you could move to to run away from the monsters. You could tag them from farther to bring up the 'hexagon' as I called it (though I don't think it was a literal Hexagon) from a distance, or walk into them. Also, environment could get in your way, like random rocks or the side of the world, making your area of combat smaller.

[Terrantor!!!]

Gotta say I'm in agreement with the fighter option. I mean Corta already has her splatformer out there. Y would you wanna rebuild an already decent engine. I think if you wanted to go turn based, side scrollin' could be both annoying and limited (I'd go with top-down free roam). The fighter was what the initial "Another Tale" was about. I can see a type of Lost Vikings meets Streets of Rage; but with sex. Option 3!!!