html5 LoK?

Discussion about Legend of Krystal. For now this also includes any feature-requests or other ideas.

Re: html5 LoK?

Postby OwnerOfSuccuby » Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:45 pm

IrrelevantComment Wrote:
OwnerOfSuccuby Wrote:I think the big mistake is that they make AS3 - if they upgrade more AS2 - it will be no needs in HTML5. I mean only for web to make web site looks better. But they start to make 100500 of different languages - they become much harder to use then - so HTML5 is so popular now. But may be i am wrong.
I start with AS2 - i really liked it. But when they start making AS3 they start to kill AS2 - and for me AS3 is like shit.
When they make AS2 they have no competitor -it was the best program for work with Internet Graphickfor me.
But for what is AS3 ? It is much much more harder and uncomfortable to use. It does not solve any new problems for me that AS2 can not.
So as i understand they try to put programming in there program - but Flash can not compete with C++ and other modern languges.


Firstly, C++ isn't really a modern language, it is outdated and inferior to C# or Java.
Secondly, upgrading AS2, if it were possible, would have no impact on HTML5. HTML 5 exists for two main reasons:
1) Flash is closed source, and completely controlled by Adobe, which nobody likes. Flash Pro is really expensive, and in the case of CS5, really buggy.
2) Apple don't like not owning a share of a market. For all Steve Jobs' "You shouldn't need a plug in to view content on websites" (unless it's Quicktime on the Apple website), the real reason Apple support HTML 5 over Flash is that Adobe own Flash and Apple are partly in charge of developing HTML5.

Thirdly, and more importantly, they COULDN'T upgrade AS2, because it was so broken. It was an incredibly inefficient language, which is why AS3 can run up to ten times as fast. The brilliant thing about AS3 is that you can create Flash games without ever opening Flash Professional - it is a self sustaining language.


1) AS 3 do not wok faster then AS2 - i first start prograsmming on As2 now on As3 - i test it by my self. Yes you can add and remove listeners if you are about it but it is noy the main problem for me it was avoidable :mrgreen: You can program on As3 with out there program yes - but where will you do it in notepad ? For me flash is good to work with graphik - but if you need to do it in notepad - it is more simly too me to use for example jQuerry or Java Script. Flash is good if it is used like flash - else it become something strange for me ;)

As2 was good it was not broken. It was good and it worked - and work good ! :mrgreen: AS2 = macromedia / AS3 starts when adobe come - may be this is the main reason - not that it was broken or some thing like that. I do not know the truth about there politics - and i trully do not care ;) - but AS2 was good - and this is true :mrgreen:
2)C may be is not the modern i do not know - but for me is C and Pascal like example - All modification of C - C++ C# Microsoft Visual Studio and etc - is C+ for me.
All modefication of pascal (Delphi and etc) is still pascal for me :mrgreen:
3)I do not like adobe :mrgreen: :lol: They have + and - but i do not like there ideology but like some form of there devices :D
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Re: html5 LoK?

Postby FMPraxis » Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:42 am

OwnerOfSuccuby Wrote:
1) AS 3 do not wok faster then AS2 - i first start prograsmming on As2 now on As3 - i test it by my self. Yes you can add and remove listeners if you are about it but it is noy the main problem for me it was avoidable :mrgreen: You can program on As3 with out there program yes - but where will you do it in notepad ? For me flash is good to work with graphik - but if you need to do it in notepad - it is more simly too me to use for example jQuerry or Java Script. Flash is good if it is used like flash - else it become something strange for me ;)

As2 was good it was not broken. It was good and it worked - and work good ! :mrgreen: AS2 = macromedia / AS3 starts when adobe come - may be this is the main reason - not that it was broken or some thing like that. I do not know the truth about there politics - and i trully do not care ;) - but AS2 was good - and this is true :mrgreen:
2)C may be is not the modern i do not know - but for me is C and Pascal like example - All modification of C - C++ C# Microsoft Visual Studio and etc - is C+ for me.
All modefication of pascal (Delphi and etc) is still pascal for me :mrgreen:
3)I do not like adobe :mrgreen: :lol: They have + and - but i do not like there ideology but like some form of there devices :D


Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on some of that:

I'm pretty sure AS3 does work faster than AS2 if you get your code off of the timeline and also larger games run a lot faster in AS3 than in AS2 because the file sizes are incredibly smaller, but I haven't tested this (aside from flash cookies, which are amazingly smaller in AS3) because i can't stand the sight of AS2 code. Many people who program in AS3 without Flash Professional use Flash Builder, but I don't because I got CS4 for less than half price and I like it very much.

AS2 was Incredibly broken. the code was a mess of bits and pieces everywhere, and there were things you had to do in the IDE for the code to even work a lot of the time. AS2 is bad, very bad. I remember when i was first learning and deciding if i was going to learn to use AS2 or AS3. It was a custom mouse cursor. The as2 version had four or five functional lines of code and was scary to me as a beginner. The AS3 version had two functional lines of code. This is why I love Adobe, and I will continue to support them until they drop support for Flash.

To your earlier Statement about Flash cannot compete with C++, it doesn't need to compete with it when it can integrate with it. There are many uses for running your SWF file in your C programs. I have seen this done, and it is amazing!

As to the Actual topic of HTML 5:
1) HTML 5 does not replace flash. As I understand it HTML will not replace flash until about version 7 (and I am still skeptical about this)
2) HTML is bad for developing games on, because you have different standards for every browser, so you have to completely reprogram massive parts of your game and create a switch to load or run the right block of code depending on your browser. Developing for IE, FF, and Opera is harder than developing for XBox, PS3 and Wii, and some professional developers don't even do that much work! There is no way I'm going to ever develop a game for a browser if I don't have to.
3) There is one other problem that developing for browsers has- if someone has a browser that is less popular or older that doesn't support HTML 5, or that your code doesn't support, or doesn't handle it the same way your code does, then they will not be able to play your game.

IMO, I would rather develop for one platform and be almost certainly guaranteed that anyone who has flash can play my game. (a lot of people use firefox 3.5 still, last time i checked, and that has no concept of HTML5 ) PPS I am very sorry for the length of this post, but I can't bring myself to kill it after working on it for over ten minutes.
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Re: html5 LoK?

Postby Renara » Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:49 pm

I suppose I should weigh in :)

While HTML 5 is more and more likely to replace Flash, it really isn't that good for developing in at the moment, and Flash has numerous advantages over HTML 5, in particular for making games and animations, and handling vector graphics. It's my hope that Adobe will eventually see reason and eventually update Flash to output HTML 5 compatible code with support for Flash's vector graphics format, as ActionScript is much better to code in than Javascript, and Flash is still a great animation tool. Adobe could easily dominate the HTML 5 game creation space using Flash as it's an existing and established tool, but they'd need to get a move on if they're going to do it.

That aside, while it'd be nice to support everyone, Flash is by far the best tool for creating games of this type. The problem with Flash really is that it never should have been used for movie files, as that's what it ended up focusing upon, but it was never really that good at it, just better than the alternatives at the time.


As for ActionScript 3.0; in theory it's not much faster than AS2, but in practise it's definitely faster as code that is re-used only needs to be compiled once. Plus, with various changes to the object-oriented model and handling of variable types there are a bunch of optimisations that simply aren't possible for AS2; the result is that's more than twice as fast for most cases, plus a lot of the really interesting newer features are only supported by AS3, so there'd be nothing worse than coding everything in AS2 only to find out you want a feature that was never made available to AS2.
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Re: html5 LoK?

Postby OwnerOfSuccuby » Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:20 pm

http://www.iphones.ru/iNotes/123594#more-123594

May be it is possible to retranslate some version of the game with this one ? :roll: Find some program named Wallaby for recode flash to html 5.

Did not test this program :mrgreen:
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Re: html5 LoK?

Postby FMPraxis » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:15 am

OwnerOfSuccuby Wrote:http://www.iphones.ru/iNotes/123594#more-123594

May be it is possible to retranslate some version of the game with this one ? :roll: Find some program named Wallaby for recode flash to html 5.

Did not test this program :mrgreen:

I would just use the trial version of Flash CS6 :roll:

But i'm pretty sure it doesn't allow you to use ActionScript so your options are either use an AS3 translation ( ;) ) and try to write intermediate code so you can run AS3 as Javascript, or just reprogram the game in javascript. (haha 'just')
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Re: html5 LoK?

Postby OwnerOfSuccuby » Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:40 pm

It is not a big problem to reprogram it but for what purpose ? Some people say - the flash lags like shit. my flash do not lag, or yes may be some of them :mrgreen: but i no the reason and it is ecouse i am lazy person and some times it is my choise to make a little size of it - but html 5 and etc lags even more - i just hate it some times ! Yes Java Script it is good to make some cool site menu on it they look very cool. But i thing nothing more. HTML 5 - for what purpose ?

For making a game like lok or any game with animation - you have to move objects. A lot of them. If so - then it will be lags. It is impossible to make motion of milion objects with out lags !!! Every program code use your CPU - If you do not and use other way like millions of seporated png/jif/movies and etc - it is not good like i think. Game from millionparts sucks :mrgreen: :lol:

By the way flash can do the same way and no lugs. You can do in flash:

Transfer size of flash to CPU usage <=> Size.

Just for example - you can tranfer some vector animation to video in lock - more size and less lags. It is possible - and you will get programs thats size is 100 mb but in flash its size can be not more than 5 mb or even less. Just for example program pocket blond on android. Yes it is simple it do not use any 3d algoritms i think - but all coding are exchanged on size. Like millions of pictures. It is the possible way to make the game - but it is possible to flash to - but no body use it for now i think. It is no point.
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Re: html5 LoK?

Postby WastedSpace » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:21 am

Just some things I want to clear up, as there's a lot of mis-information in this thread:

HTML5 is still young, so browsers are still working on implementing it and optimizing its execution. I think Chrome has the best support/execution speed for it at the moment. Also, there is an HTML5 standard that the browsers follow, so you don't have to worry about writing five variations of code because each browser "does it its own way". Current features supported per rendering engine are listed on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison ... 28HTML5%29

Also, HTML5 just includes the markup and related elements. JavaScript and CSS3 are separate entities that are also handled by the browser. Java is something completely different that requires a third-party VM and plugin be installed (somewhat like Flash, but more versatile and open).

Calling C++ "old" is silly, as it's constantly being updated with new features:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B11

It's also important to note that Flash, Java, C#, ect all run on top of programs that were written in c++ (AVM1/2, JVM, .NET respectively).

Also, engines have been written in JavaScript for doing vector animation with HTML5, so you wouldn't have to start from scratch. There are also HTML5 game and physics engines that would give you some of the features Flash offers. But their speed likely won't compare to Flash for a bit.
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Re: html5 LoK?

Postby rpgmaker » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:31 am

Hi there!

@OP: I think it would be a good idea to separate/export all of LoK project assets and from there, let the community work with whatever platforms they want: be it HTML5 or else!

There's a lot of different engines, tools and ways to make a cool 2D games like LoK other than Flash. I think it dramatically reduces the number of possible versions we could have by sticking to only one platform... How about a Unity version using Unity3D's Web Player? lol

Now, we all know the official platform is Flash. That's alright and can't be discuss. It would be nice though to export at least once all the files (pictures, sounds, etc.) as much as possible and let the people try unusual things! What works will work, what fails will die.

How about that?

In summary: a common asset repository that could be used by everyone, instead of .fla only.

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Re: html5 LoK?

Postby OwnerOfSuccuby » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:22 pm

And why fla can not be used for any one ? As i understand Flash have 30 days trial :mrgreen: - so you can opel and convert all fla files to any you want ;)

Flash rules :lol: Just a joke ;)

But any way i like flash :mrgreen:

The idea is not bad really. For example all movies from LoK can be converted like some kind of video or png or some thing else. Then size of LoK game will go up - but it will not use so much CPU and it will be possible to use it even for creating progects for mobile devices and etc. with out lags.

Now the game size is not a big problem for gamers becouse they have good connect and high internet speed. This idea is really not bad.

But as you can understand all that will take a lot of time as i understand ... so if any body will do it it will be very good ;)

But who will be that hero ? :mrgreen:

And who will do some none flash progect with it then ?
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Re: html5 LoK?

Postby rpgmaker » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:21 pm

-As i understand Flash have 30 days trial
Good point! I forgot about that trial.

-Who will do the export?
Me. I don't mind converting all the assets into "regular" files. It will be a bit bigger, but it doesn't matter. what DOES matter is the EXPORTED project's size. Dev sessions can be any size since it doesn't affect the end-user. (unless badly exported lol) I already have the source files so I'll start when I have some spare time. BTW, if there's new and updated source files, I'd like to be informed :P

-Who will do non flash project?
Anyone who wish to! And that's the point! Mostly none Flash I guess... :D

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Re: html5 LoK?

Postby OwnerOfSuccuby » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:56 pm

By the way - in what will you convert it - i mean what format ? Some image format like *png/ or vector format (i do not what are common vector format) or it will be some video format.

What resolution it will be ?

Will you export for example each animation 3 times - each time for different armors ? If you will not how do you plan to do it in other way ?

How will you export mess layers ?

I just little do not understand how it will look like :oops: But it is interesting to me becouse it is not standart problem and it can have different solutuins ;)
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Re: html5 LoK?

Postby rpgmaker » Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:06 pm

I'll post more details once I get in the process! Indeed, it's an interesting project.

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Re: html5 LoK?

Postby BlueLight » Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:25 am

rpgmaker Wrote:Hi there!

@OP: I think it would be a good idea to separate/export all of LoK project assets and from there, let the community work with whatever platforms they want: be it HTML5 or else!

There's a lot of different engines, tools and ways to make a cool 2D games like LoK other than Flash. I think it dramatically reduces the number of possible versions we could have by sticking to only one platform... How about a Unity version using Unity3D's Web Player? lol

Now, we all know the official platform is Flash. That's alright and can't be discuss. It would be nice though to export at least once all the files (pictures, sounds, etc.) as much as possible and let the people try unusual things! What works will work, what fails will die.

How about that?

In summary: a common asset repository that could be used by everyone, instead of .fla only.

RP

The community can do what ever they want.
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Re: html5 LoK?

Postby OwnerOfSuccuby » Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:22 pm

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Re: html5 LoK?

Postby MirceaKitsune » Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:17 pm

I was going to make a new thread for this, but remembered this one is still around. Especially now that I moved to Linux and clearly won't be getting Adobe's commercial Flash tools, I'm most interested in a html5 LoK game.

Since I last posted here, html5 gaming seems to have advanced quite a bit. Even Newgrounds now accepts html5, and a load of engines and game development kits exist. The only drawback is that shape based animation is still harder to do... especially skeletal animations, or objects connected to each other by joints. What we're likely looking for is animation in svg files, and tools similar to Inkskape but which also let you animate elements.

Anyway, I'd like to be more concrete this time about what I'm asking. I had several questions in this regard:

1 - Has anyone attempted or is anyone planning to make html5 LoK game so far? If not, what's stopping or discouraging you from doing that, and what would motivate you to try it?

2 - What html5 engines or relevant tools do you know of, which could help with making a LoK game? I know Inkscape would be needed for the sprites... otherwise there's a variety of FOSS html5 game engines.

3 - Are there any tools that can convert Flash files to html5? I know the Shumway extension for Firefox does this internally... but apart from being too buggy at this stage, you also can't retrieve the converted project as a whole. Since LoK is open-source, using a converter to turn existing games into html5 projects shouldn't bother anyone.

4 - Can we get the sprites in svg format anywhere? It would be helpful and appreciated if someone who has Adobe's Flash development kit could export and post them as svg files.
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Re: html5 LoK?

Postby Seiteki-saki » Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:31 pm

Cool so I tried the following:

Only sound files can be exported as far as I know. Anyone got info on that? Everything else can be extracted, but the files would be XML files with AS script. They are very lengthy :(

LoK is too big for the conversion to work properly. All swf or fla to html5 conversion software are only useful for small projects, and sometimes it seems like they are not useful at all.

HTML5 is becoming more useful in more ways than one. Also, I still like what flash can do. There are a lot of things people can do without much developer knowledge with flash pro than a regular IDE even though it appears intimidating for beginners. It makes things much more simpler to put into perspective. The same IDE can be used for HTML5, but more than likely if you don't have a workstation the program will crash for big projects. Adobe also has a conversion feature on flash pro, but it crashes for big projects. I tried with different projects and no dice just error screens.

The idea about a game engine would be nice, but it probably limits the imagination. I feel like its too early. I think the game would need be made from scratch if its HTML5.

Also, if there is some people interested then we should share screenwriting for this. It could help. That way anyone interested in this community project could post assets, or whatever based on ideas. I wana help :p
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