Would you like a speaking Krystal ?

[Sainiku]

How's this? You make one version with dialouge and one without it. Or you could have an option for it dialouge or no dialouge at the start-up menu. YAY COMPROMISES!!!!

This is a good idea to have a 3rd party to write and find a good way to implement dialog. I believe that if a third party wants to make and submit dialog, that would be great for having it as an option. However, i honestly think it would slow down production a lot if the main team were to focus on adding this in.

[Cha0tic221]

Another possibility looking at other games would be to have these options but not make it change the storyline, just the ending. The plot along the way can still be the same but with a "Modified" ending. Instead of going with Fox she could leave on her on "ambitions", or she could go with Fox. Only 2 or 3 would suffice.

[nebrose]

Another possibility looking at other games would be to have these options but not make it change the storyline, just the ending. The plot along the way can still be the same but with a "Modified" ending. Instead of going with Fox she could leave on her on "ambitions", or she could go with Fox. Only 2 or 3 would suffice.

yeah that would work

[Kalypso]

1) Okay, in that case, your meaning is actually worse. Trunks isn't being lazy--he's been a really big help to me and the team here, you're putting yourself at bad terms either way you say it.

2) You didn't read my post, did you? Alright. I said that a poll that has two options for a yes maybe, then a maybe, and then a definite "no" is not a democracy at all. Its you playing puppeteer, pulling the strings. You already have a definitive "Yes," and a "well, maybe" Yes. The "Maybe" is actually a "Not Really."
Have you ever been invited to a party that you just did not want to go to, and said "I might come, I dunno, we'll see..." Yeah. That's the "maybe" you've made-meaning "No." Notice, your maybe says, and I quote: "Maybe. I'm not sure that will be a good addition to the game though." That means they don't want it, and you can't count any of them as a "yes--" unless that's a "maybe, I want to see what the Team can cook up. Otherwise, you've slanted the vote 3:1, and even if nobody voted on your second "yes," it doesn't mean that you can change the name of the game to Texas Hold'em when you're sitting at a blackjack table. You're beautifying your vote, and in our eyes, is false.

3) Let me make something clear--are you worried about not understanding what's going on in-game? DON'T. You will understand. There will be a story. Things will definitely make sense, there's going to be some text and dialogue, don't worry. But we're not making a game with endless text boxes, we're making an animated porn RPG on flash. When was the last time you played an animated porn RPG with realtime sex on flash other than LoK? I didn't think so (xD, lol, yeah, I know. Harsh, but true). Our focus isn't on a talkative bitch who just doesn't shut up--or separate story trails that lead to different end games depending on which text box you click on--if you want to see v0.3, at least.

4) You'll know Krystal's personality as the game progresses. How? Facial expression, how she reacts to sex, how she takes everything, etc., easy-peasy. You don't need words to describe an image that's right in front of you.

5) I don't think it matters that you speak French. You can say the same words in any language. You call someone a lazy procrastinator in another language, no matter how sugar coated it may seem, its still an insult--especially when you don't know what they do, or acknowledge them as hard working. Hell, he's avoiding it and we all are. If you want to see v0.3 sooner, this will only act as a crutch in our efforts. I'm only saying "don't forget who's making this game" because, you need to remember that its TRUNKS who is a member of the team as well. You've got nothing to worry about with me. But as it stands, Trunks makes up 25% of our active team members. You need to take into account that if you screw around with him and insult him, you've already denoted yourself, and put yourself at bad odds with who will be on your side. We also communicate with each other frequently, so you're just digging your own grave.

I don't tell you thinks to be selfish, I'm only trying to help you. If you think I'm being mean, well, sure I am, if "mean" is the truth. Its going to be hard enough making this game, and I don't want you to be disappointed because:
a) you're asking for a lot
b) you're convinced the vote is in your favor, when its not
c) you're not listening
d) you're still not listening
e) you're insulting members of the team
I know that seems harsh. It is. If you want us to be on our side, you need to show us a little respect. That's not too hard to understand, is it?

[Visplane_Overflow]

too much text to quote

A wise man once said "Brevity is the soul of wit."

Anything you can say, I guarantee can be made more concise and readable without sacrificing your meaning.

For example - "A picture speaks a thousand words". It's as true here as it is anywhere - a convincing, long-winded narrative is unnecessary, given, as you said that everything is happening in front of you - you don't need to be told about what can be seen with your own eyes.

So I agree with you, Kalypso, but it's a waste of your time and your reader's time when you type out those bland text walls.

[nebrose]

too much text to quote

A wise man once said "Brevity is the soul of wit."

Anything you can say, I guarantee can be made more concise and readable without sacrificing your meaning.

For example - "A picture speaks a thousand words". It's as true here as it is anywhere - a convincing, long-winded narrative is unnecessary, given, as you said that everything is happening in front of you - you don't need to be told about what can be seen with your own eyes.

So I agree with you, Kalypso, but it's a waste of your time and your reader's time when you type out those bland text walls.

seconded about the text walls

[trunks2585]

i'm glad you guys agree with thinking only the endings need to have multiple outcomes not everything in between that would affect future scenes. This is what i'm talking about when i say reaching compromises. more realistically that is what would be likely to happen, while the OP (original poster) wanted the full story to change as earlier choices were made to better understand the ending, i don't think that amount of scene and choice alterning is needed to really understand why you got the 'happy ending/bad ending/slutty ending' etc.

And if need be we could include a list of statistics showing what choices were usually made and what those choices contributed towards, example would be if you select option 1 everytime there's a choice, it contributes to the slutty ending so it could read something like

'lesbian scene: choice 1 picked. +1 slutty end'
'blowjob scene: choice 1 picked +1 slutty end'

slutty end 2 good end 0 bad end 0

SLUTTY ENDING AWARDED *cue whatever smutty scene here with a little text box at the bottom*
"you picked the dirtiest options for krystal every time, now she's come to enjoy her new life, why not play again for a diffrent ending?"

we could even keep track of how many endings have been unlocked and now many there are. Keep in mind that this is something that's on the back burner We still have to give everyone a single completed story before we can screw around with multiple endings. It's a good idea and we'll talk about it for sure, I'll push for it, but right now it's gotta be put on hold.

doing two versions, one with dialog and one without should be pretty easy, we'd just put in all the current stuff we need save for the dialog and option choices, and then add in all that stuff and just save the file with a different name so we'd have to like "version0.3", 'version0.3 dialog' or something. I suspect we'll already be making alternate saves for the 'safe' version as i'm calling it, the one we know everyone likes, and then name the experiments something else, if they pass, they get added for good, if not, back to square one.


To kal: thanks, you're a good friend standing up for me as a person and as a member of the development team. I think he knows he's been out of line by now so let's let it go now ok? I don't think he plans on commenting back on this but i hope he reads your comment and understands we arn't trying to act superior or chase him off, just trying to open his eyes.


short verson if that's too much text
the idea of multiple endings is more along the lines of a good compromise and i'd push for this when i talk to the other team members, but it won't be included anytime soon, we need one story and ending before we can make multiple endings.

we'll probably go with the 'make two versons' suggestion

let's drop the argument with the original poster, and see what others think.

[Sainiku]

So I agree with you, Kalypso, but it's a waste of your time and your reader's time when you type out those bland text walls.

I believe i have a philosophy that is related to this.
"Real programmers don't comment their code. If it was hard to write, it should be hard to understand."

He put a lot of thought into his post. There may have been many ways to cut corners and still get his point across, but the sheer effort itself that was put into the post, i believe, adds an even stronger meaning behind it.

Also, i believe that people should honestly read more anyway. This really shouldn't seem like a lot of text to people.

Furthermore, i believe that when trying to have someone understand something in an argument such as this, it's in many cases wise to explain your points in great detail, so you can not be mis-understood.

[trunks2585]

you know sainiku just made me realize something. If the posts me, kal, and elgregou made seem long, just imagine how much reading you'd be doing in the game if we went 100% with his idea. Gotta love irony.

seriously there's gonna be text and dialog but I'll try not to bury anyone under it.

[Sainiku]

you know sainiku just made me realize something. If the posts me, kal, and elgregou made seem long, just imagine how much reading you'd be doing in the game if we went 100% with his idea. Gotta love irony.

seriously there's gonna be text and dialog but I'll try not to bury anyone under it.

woo i'm glad i'm good for something. XD

But thanks trunks, i'm sure many of us appreciate that very much.

[Visplane_Overflow]

Also, i believe that people should honestly read more anyway. This really shouldn't seem like a lot of text to people.

It's not about the amount of reading that needs to be done, because I believe also that people should read more - I just don't believe that a guy's post on a forum deserves that extra bit of reading. You should try reading something important, or something that will teach you a skill or a new way of looking at things.

Furthermore, i believe that when trying to have someone understand something in an argument such as this, it's in many cases wise to explain your points in great detail, so you can not be mis-understood.

By over-detailing your point, you will more often than not create more confusion for everyone trying to read your post. Keep it simple, stupid.

He put a lot of thought into his post. There may have been many ways to cut corners and still get his point across, but the sheer effort itself that was put into the post, i believe, adds an even stronger meaning behind it.

If the amount of thought or effort is a measure of merit, then do keep in mind that it takes more thought to keep your point concise and understandable.
QED.

[Sainiku]

It's not about the amount of reading that needs to be done, because I believe also that people should read more - I just don't believe that a guy's post on a forum deserves that extra bit of reading. You should try reading something important, or something that will teach you a skill or a new way of looking at things.

In an argument, you are reading counter-points to learn new ways of looking at things. Also, importance is very subjective.

By over-detailing your point, you will more often than not create more confusion for everyone trying to read your post. Keep it simple, stupid.

I do not agree that he was over-detailing, as it seemed well thought out and much of what he said was used to back up his thoughts with useful analogies and examples. If you were confused by this, then please refer back to my philosophy: "Real programmers don't comment their code. If it was hard to write, it should be hard to understand." This explains that if you do get confused by it, you should read it more closely and in more detail, as he obvious did put a lot of good analogies and support in his post.

If the amount of thought or effort is a measure of merit, then do keep in mind that it takes more thought to keep your point concise and understandable.
QED.

I believe this is true to a point. If he were able to shorten his post, yet keep the same amount of detail and support in it, i'd be fairly impressed. However, to say that the thought and effort contributes to 'merit', is simply trying to misconstrue what i have said. Strength of an argument is far different then the merit of an argument. Strength is how well an argument holds together, while merit is measuring the elements of an argument individually to it's counter-points.

[DemonFiren]

As impressive as your discussion is, I might remind the gentlemen to come back to topic as soon as the issue is dealt with. Which I thereby do.

Also, a programmer should always comment the code, so that the principle of teamwork can be applyed. Just because you're so good doesn't mean a group of others can't do better, and you'll grant them the favour of making things easier. Excuse me, but I've always been social in such matters, unless it's most private business, which I do not believe code to be.

[Elgregou]

@Kalypso : Well here's a new poll :

Would you like a speaking Krystal ?
1) Yes
2) Yes
3) Yes
4) Yes
5) Maybe
6) No

It seems unbalanced to you because there are four YES choices ? You don't seem to understand, and I fear that it is you who didn't read my post... Even if I put 10 yes choices, people who don't want a speaking Krystal WILL STILL take the NO choice. Nothing prevents them, and that's not the number of choices that will distract them froom thei position.
Concerning the MAYBE choice, I will retake your example of the party. When you say to someone who invites you to a party : "Maybe I will come, I'm not sure it will be great though", do you mean that you're 100% sure the party will be a disaster ? Don't you think there's a chance that this person is curious to see the party and can change his point of view after the fiesta ? That's the point of a MAYBE. MAYBE means a person is unsure, not that she's convinced that the idea will be a disaster.
I created the first 2 choices in the poll ("Yes, multiple choices, and Yes one path story) so that, in the case a person wants written lines, she can express herself to what point she wants them. This was to understand why. On the same scale, I could have created 2 NO choices with "No, I prefer to imagine Krystal' thoughts" and "NO, I think it is boring to read lines in a game". People who chose NO would have split their votes between these 2 choices. Plain. Not a new choice here that could have disbalanced the entire poll.


I will not try to answer all the rest of your post, becasue it seems you have your ideas and I have mine. And, as a member of the team here, of course, like you clearly said, your opinion stands at a piedestal and, if someone here has negative reviews or harsh critics about the current game, oh my god they need to be REAAAAALLY gentle with you and the rest of the team.
Maybe you're right, maybe in the 0.3 version and, to a full degree, in the 1.0 version, flash animations will be so well-maded that Krystal's face will only be needed to show her character, her personality. Words are not needed to describe an image that is in front of someone you say ? Maybe.... But in that case the picture will have to be extremely perfect. And I doubt that Flash animations, currently, can show this...

And finally, to answer your last things :
a) Yes I ask, or rather, suggest a lot of things. That doesn't mean I expect to see all of these. I'm just saying many ideas, you pick those you want. That's all. It just comes, finally, to the quantity of work you can and want to do.
b) Vote IS in my favor. 47% of YES, 27% of MAYBE, 25% of NO. I will not explain again what is a "maybe" choice...
c and d) Oh yes I'm listening (reading, rather). It seems that you, on the contrary, doesn't take seriously what I said just because I criticized some of the team work. So you know what ? I will say the game is PERFECT, I will say that all of the work is PERFECT, that nothing needs to be made or remade, that all of your ideas are great.
Happy ? Oh.... But that creates a problem : with no real feedbacks at all, the board is totally useless now...
e) I'm not insulting. But when I don't like some aspects of a work, I say it. You really need to accept negative feedbacks here...

In conclusion, I don't want to be on your side, that's not the goal here. With all the respect I have for what you're doing, if some things are needed to be said (in my opinion of course), I will say them. They could be harsh but, like you said it so well, I will not coat them in sugar. either you accept them with philosophy, or either you continue to make the game without taking into consideration some of the player's ideas.

The mood here is definitely bad, and I don't think that I'm the reason. I'll go back to Slavemaker. Cmacleod is more talkative, more comprehensive, even if I and other players said sometimes that some aspects of his game were really not good and that he had to change them (what he did, by the way).
I hope the poll will help you, but I will definitely not give my feedback on the game anymore. Do it as you planned, that's all; I hope that players will enjoy it, because if you have other negative feedbacks, you will really think that evryone is harsh on you...

[trunks2585]

ugh god, don't make me repeat myself. Did you even read my post or are you just venting to kal now? the rest of the community is just as important as the LOK team, so i suggest you read what they've been saying as well. And it's not that they've misunderstood your idea either when you restated your first post yesterday, maybe it's that they also don't agree with the extent you want to go with this idea. You say these are just suggestions but you seem to take is pretty hard when someone shoots the idea down or says it needs to be tweaked. And we can take negitive feedback, don't assume the way we've responded to your thread is the way we react to everything else. There's a lot I could say to you and the attitude you've had for a while but i'm going to let it go and let others get back to posting their thoughts, if they even still feel comfortable continuing this thread.

[Sainiku]

I believe this thread should be purged, as almost all if it is off-topic flaming. Probably best if it was deleted, then simply start a new poll with simplified 1 word answers. (of yes, no, and maybe.)

Honestly, i don't see why that wasn't done in the first place.

[trunks2585]

heh you must be reading my mind. I was thinking earlier 'we'd probably have the most accurate results with just yes no and maybe, leave the 'multiple ending' subject for another thread' when you combine two different ideas like this you get mixed results, (people might want the multiple endings but not the dialog but with out two no choices equal to the two yes choices i can't really call this a fair poll), although the two ideas do work well together they still should be approaches seperatly even if only for a short time to get some votes and opinions.

[Sainiku]

heh you must be reading my mind. I was thinking earlier 'we'd probably have the most accurate results with just yes no and maybe, leave the 'multiple ending' subject for another thread' when you combine two different ideas like this you get mixed results, (people might want the multiple endings but not the dialog but with out two no choices equal to the two yes choices i can't really call this a fair poll), although the two ideas do work well together they still should be approaches seperatly even if only for a short time to get some votes and opinions.

I don't read minds... I explodiate them with crazeh antics and defiable subjective logistics and cornucopias of hawt sexiness :3

Seriously though... where the FUCK did my dong go? >:\

[Visplane_Overflow]

In an argument, you are reading counter-points to learn new ways of looking at things. Also, importance is very subjective.

Irrelevant. I was suggesting that people ought to read things that will help them, not fiction, and not lengthy forum posts. That is an opinion, and you do not have to agree with it.

I do not agree that he was over-detailing, as it seemed well thought out and much of what he said was used to back up his thoughts with useful analogies and examples. If you were confused by this, then please refer back to my philosophy: "Real programmers don't comment their code. If it was hard to write, it should be hard to understand." This explains that if you do get confused by it, you should read it more closely and in more detail, as he obvious did put a lot of good analogies and support in his post.

I was not confused by Kalypso's post - my post was just a warning that he should avoid making long posts. Long posts lend themselves to stream-of-consciousness rants with multiple tangents and only tenuous links between them, confusing the reader and obfuscating your original idea. That is why we invented the paragraph.

I believe this is true to a point. If he were able to shorten his post, yet keep the same amount of detail and support in it, i'd be fairly impressed. However, to say that the thought and effort contributes to 'merit', is simply trying to misconstrue what i have said. Strength of an argument is far different then the merit of an argument. Strength is how well an argument holds together, while merit is measuring the elements of an argument individually to it's counter-points.

I honestly have no idea what you're going on about here. Strength and merit? I was using the word 'merit' to describe the abstract value of an argument or post - I understood that you believed that a long post required more thought to write, ergo it is inherently more valuable. I had posit the following; that it would take a stronger mind to keep your writing clear, concise, and to the point - I did this to appeal to your sense of judgment on the value of one's argument. But nice job pulling strange definitions of 'merit' and 'strength' completely out of your ass, it almost made you look like you knew what you were doing.

[Sainiku]

I honestly have no idea what you're going on about here. Strength and merit? I was using the word 'merit' to describe the abstract value of an argument or post - I understood that you believed that a long post required more thought to write, ergo it is inherently more valuable. I had posit the following; that it would take a stronger mind to keep your writing clear, concise, and to the point - I did this to appeal to your sense of judgment on the value of one's argument. But nice job pulling strange definitions of 'merit' and 'strength' completely out of your ass, it almost made you look like you knew what you were doing.

I honestly have no idea what you're going on about here.

no idea

i couldn't have said it better myself.

Also, i find it funny that you are honestly still arguing with me about semantics and subjectiveness. The entire topic of our argument is subjective to begin with. To actually begin to use such strong and forceful language as you are now, is showing an immaturity that i find amusing. You honestly seem like your getting defensive about a topic that, honestly, neither of us could win in the first place. ^^

My original post was simply defending the fact that he did, in fact, build a persuasive argument using well defined details and supporting analogies and evidence. I find it hilarious that you're arguing with me about it, as in all honesty, i voted FOR the dialog. When it comes to the dialog, yes i do want it, but i honestly don't think it should be a main focus of the team. Also, K put forward a lot of good points on how Elgregou was unfairly flaming trunks.

I find it even funnier, as you believe i'm pulling strange definitions of strength and merit from nowhere. Strength is never about how RIGHT something is. Strength comes from how well supported and put together a topic is. Merit, is how RIGHT something is. Merit is completely subjective. Example: Hitler's speeches were always very well formulated. They were very strong. Did they have much merit to them? That's for the listener to decide.

I also am enjoying the fact that Elgregou actually began the arguments with walls of texts, but you never decided to speak against the walls of text until K spoke up. And you honestly singled K out when you did.

If you're trying to have an honest argument about how forum posts should or shouldn't be formatted, then i suggest you begin a discussion in general. To simply begin commenting off-topic here about forum post lengths and such, is simply trolling. ^^

I believe i've humored you enough. That was fun.