Scrolling environment

[MirceaKitsune]

I'm seeing many changes planned for 0.3, and thought this would be an important part of improving the visuals and environment (surely something that's been thought of before). Could anyone make the world scroll as you walk, rather than walking into an edge to get to the next area? I believe that would look a lot better, although I'm not sure if the current backgrounds can be linked into one long image at this point (though the borders between areas seem to match). Some spots could still use the old system if needed... like the entrance to the cave, while everything before it and after it could scroll.

This should also simplify the number of frames and assets, and make things like stairs and complex movement more possible. Also allow layers that scroll at different speeds. The front details would scroll faster as you walk, while things behind the background slower and the sky stays still. So if this isn't too late to do at this at this point, I hope it's one thing that may happen. Imho it would be a necessary change at some point, though I don't wish to spam the team with difficult requests

[pToon-T]

I'm not sure how much I should/can say about how we're going to be do the backgrounds, but what you've suggested has been discussed.

[MirceaKitsune]

Nice. Perhaps at least something similar may happen then. If this touches surprises in 0.3 I'd rather not ask and ruin them.

[Renara]

Well, there are advantages and disadvantages to scrolling environments. Obviously a scrolling environment seems a lot bigger since you're exploring it within the bounds of the screen anyway, the main problem is that a scrolling environment is made up of a huge or repeating background, the former being quite costly to render, and the latter, well limits the environment and is also quite costly to render, since any scrolling environment means the background is updating regularly, so Flash has to redraw the whole scene every time that happens (every frame if you're moving).

Expect to see them where they make sense, and those with particularly good Flash performance may have a few surprises in store on top of that, though probably not in v0.3 as I've delayed the engine enough as it is!

[MirceaKitsune]

Right... I didn't think about performance. Although, can 2-3 scrolling layers really make a difference on any computer today? It does surprise me if a few extra images (even if large) could cause any visible lag... though of course more experienced users know best. Perhaps the details could be menu options then.

But it's nice to know this may be done in some areas My initial idea was two long images of the main architecture, one rendered behind the character and the other covering it (like a bar you'd walk on followed by the camera, as far as flash would be concerned). Then the details (trees hills and other stuff) placed on other layers that scroll at different speeds. If such details were individual symbols and flash smart enough, it could even not render those that aren't in your FOV and visible. As for ranging, I would have liked to see the scrolling area stretch from Scales's room to the far left, to the cave entrance on the right. But if that's too long on shorter distances perhaps.

[Renara]

Well, you'd be surprised performance wise; it's important to note just how inefficient Flash can be, as very little of it is properly hardware accelerated, so the most efficient scenes are ones where only a few small portions of the screen are updating per-frame, which is a problem when the background is sliding about since it forces a full screen redraw. That doesn't mean we can't, or won't, do cool things with the graphics, indeed there are plenty of ways to cheat and squeeze a bit of extra performance out of Flash in various places.

Our characters etc. are going to be more detailed, though at the same time pToon-T's working hard to get them done in Illustrator before importing into Flash, which makes for very clean vector artwork, which means more detail isn't necessarily less performance in that area. Sliding backgrounds certainly will have their uses, and I have a few ideas that may allow us to do something really neat with them in future, but I'll keep that to myself for now as it won't appear till at least v0.4.

[MirceaKitsune]

Ok. That sounds exciting... I shall see in 0.4 then Just one question about the character detailing: Will it change the way Krystal looks? Like replacing the sprites or changing her design? I love how she looks in LoK more than even Nintendo's version or most artwork of her. So other than detailing, I hope she'll always stay the same in shape ^_^

[something]

Ok. That sounds exciting... I shall see in 0.4 then Just one question about the character detailing: Will it change the way Krystal looks? Like replacing the sprites or changing her design? I love how she looks in LoK more than even Nintendo's version or most artwork of her. So other than detailing, I hope she'll always stay the same in shape ^_^

Well her butt could be a little rounder (and smaller) but other than that I agree she looks great.

[pToon-T]

I'm redoing all the Sprites and Backgrounds, so there will be a change in the design.

[MirceaKitsune]

Ah, I see then. That does worry me a bit. Not doubting your sprites will look good or anything. But I'm still worrying Krystal may not look as pretty and cute and cartoony as now. Can any screenshots be posted of her new design only, without ruining any surprise?

[LaconicWolf]

As a point of curiosity, would rastorizing the background increase performance? Sure the file size would increase but you should only have one draw call no matter how detailed or large the image.

[trunks2585]

Ah, I see then. That does worry me a bit. Not doubting your sprites will look good or anything. But I'm still worrying Krystal may not look as pretty and cute and cartoony as now. Can any screenshots be posted of her new design only, without ruining any surprise?

I've posted this on the development board, once krystal's head is done, i want the team to agree to upload at the very least a mugshot. I doubt the body will be much of an issue, it'll really come down to the face that makes or breaks ptoon-t's krystal. Everyone here deserves to see something that'll be in game, plus if we need to rework krystal, it's better to be told that now, than later. (personally i've been in love with ptoon-t's design for her a lot more than I was for Kal's, although there's still a few changes that need to be made, hench why there's nothing to show atm of her).

[MirceaKitsune]

I've posted this on the development board, once krystal's head is done, i want the team to agree to upload at the very least a mugshot. I doubt the body will be much of an issue, it'll really come down to the face that makes or breaks ptoon-t's krystal. Everyone here deserves to see something that'll be in game, plus if we need to rework krystal, it's better to be told that now, than later. (personally i've been in love with ptoon-t's design for her a lot more than I was for Kal's, although there's still a few changes that need to be made, hench why there's nothing to show atm of her).

Hope some screenshots of the new design can be posted soon when it's ready. And yeah, I feel the same way about the current design <3 So I hope the new one follows it as much as possible. Especially the head, as that's indeed the main part. Though the body can brake looks too, if the new form isn't as cute and cartoony (and I think her butt size is good as it is... though maybe a bit more round ^_^). Also, can her footpaws stay partly digitigrade like they are in the current sprites please? I find that a lot cuter and better than Nintendo's Krystal which entirely has human feet, as some other differences.

As for the scrolling environment, I just thought to note this: There already seems to be a fork of LoK that has it, called Kay Fox And The Magic Sword (LoK with a combat system and stuff). http://flashchan.ru/flash.html?t=yiff&f ... agic_Sword I haven't played it much since some things about it bother me. But if you walk around it has exactly what I'm suggesting (without the automatic zooming though). It's not done over great distances, but I'm not seeing any FPS drop either.

[Renara]

As a point of curiosity, would rastorizing the background increase performance? Sure the file size would increase but you should only have one draw call no matter how detailed or large the image.

Flash sort of rasterises vectors as it goes, which is what you're inspecting when you enable "Show Redraw Regions", certainly we could eliminate the need to do-so by adding them as images, but Flash doesn't handle images desperately well, with the exception of Best detail level it doesn't anti-alias images, meaning they don't always look great. It also would remove the ability to animate things in the background without breaking them into separate symbols and scrolling them independently, which would probably look a bit odd.

Don't worry, I'm not saying scrolling environments won't exist in the game, but we're going to use them where it makes most sense to is all. For example, a simple outdoor area could use a scrolling background and still look and perform well without any need to fiddle with detail settings, but a high-detail indoor area with a greater concentration of characters may benefit from being broken into a set of static areas (what v0.2 does right now). Is all about trade-offs

[OwnerOfSuccuby]

I like how it is now Scrolling i think is not really a big problem - but what is it for ? But for example some parts i think can be make like that - for example forest etc.

I think it will be to much walking So the way it is now - is good solution

With out it it is possible to use not connected parts - it make it like scrolling - it will take more time.