Beastality

[Renara]

How many people saying it is wrong are vegetarians? If you can happily raise an animal in a shit environment and kill it just so you can eat it, you cannot claim that an action that pleasures both individuals is "taking advantage".

It absolutely is, but the difference is that we know with certainty that it is against the animal's wishes and choose to overrule that for the sake of survival. Granted that side of things is wildly muddied given that we have people who eat when they don't need to, and many animals are farmed in conditions that are unnecessary, except to do it more cheaply by as a trade off for ethics.

Still, compared to bestiality the animal's wishes are well known and ignored for the sake of what is (mostly) a more important purpose; bestiality meanwhile is ignoring the animal's wishes, or intentionally manipulating them, for the sake of your own pleasure. I'm not sure that it's directly comparable.

I mean there is of course a whole discussion on whether we even need to eat meat anymore, given that a vegetarian diet can be farmed more efficiently (and more ecologically) in most cases, which means that eating meat is almost purely for pleasure in a lot of Western civilisation. But, that's a discussion for a different topic. Just with that in mind I want to clarify that I'm not a vegetarian, but I do avoid foods that I consider to have been unethically farmed.

[Zeus Kabob]

For example, Veal, amirite?

I love meat, and the way I see it, animals aren't any more hurt by the treatment they get than we project on them to be. Animals are incapable of forward-thinking, and they are incapable of communication. Considering the two of these, the only animal that I know of that is ever "hurt" while being slaughtered is pigs, as they have a dim recognition of the fact that they're going to die. Cows, sheep, and other livestock are not aware that they're going to die, and all slaughter is carried out with focus on making sure the animals don't feel pain.

You can say that we're "robbing them of their potential to be happy in a field somewhere", but they can't care because they can't know that there's something better (no communicative skills), and they don't have the capability to wonder about those things even if they had the knowledge of something better (underdeveloped frontal lobe).

Also, even if they were hurt I don't care, as I don't believe in the afterlife and I don't care about livestock because of their lack of care for me and their inability to communicate or make themselves and individual.

[IrrelevantComment]

Also, even if they were hurt I don't care, as I don't believe in the afterlife and I don't care about livestock because of their lack of care for me and their inability to communicate or make themselves and individual.

The first bit doesn't make sense. Lack of belief in an afterlife is a good argument for why death isn't bad, but not for pain. I could shoot you in the foot now, and it would be okay because I don't believe in an afterlife either?
Their lack of care for you? By that logic it is okay to kill a stranger, as they don't care about you.
Also, all animals communicate. Maybe they don't speak English, but that doesn't mean they don't communicate.

[talin]

Also, even if they were hurt I don't care, as I don't believe in the afterlife and I don't care about livestock because of their lack of care for me and their inability to communicate or make themselves and individual.

The first bit doesn't make sense. Lack of belief in an afterlife is a good argument for why death isn't bad, but not for pain. I could shoot you in the foot now, and it would be okay because I don't believe in an afterlife either?
Their lack of care for you? By that logic it is okay to kill a stranger, as they don't care about you.
Also, all animals communicate. Maybe they don't speak English, but that doesn't mean they don't communicate.

Normally I would totally agree with you right there because those are excellent counter points but... You comment is irrelevant /troll

[Smackman]

some animals raised for food get treated like shit but for the most part its better than the wild.

[Thee Pie Man]

Ren basically answered this but I like my two cents to be in here too.
(Note this may have offensive things to some people, but I do explain I am not trying to do so. so if you read it do not rage at me )

Spoiler (click to show/hide):

How many people saying it is wrong are vegetarians? If you can happily raise an animal in a shit environment and kill it just so you can eat it, you cannot claim that an action that pleasures both individuals is "taking advantage".

Many people say it's not "right" to be a vegetarian, I have never really heard anyone saying it was flat out wrong. I am sure some people have heard it including yourself though so I will call that on experience rather then majority.
Honestly. I could never raise an animal in a shit environment and kill it just for food. (See Rant below for more details) I would feel really horrible about it. So I can say for a fact that an action that pleasures the HUMAN and MAYBE the animal (How do we know it's not JUST instinct to breed?) Regardless of the situation whether it pleasures one or the other or both. I find it taking advantage of the animal for the animal has no say in the matter given we can not communicate with them. I would fully agree with you that people that say they don't care how animals are treated that they eat can not really make a judgement call due to their (You don't have to read it.)morally askew minds,(Sorry if it offends people but I feel it's true)they of course can have an opinion. But I think it's going to weigh a lot less in an argument if that was brought up.
I find that animals are being taken advantage of because they aren't really able to or much less allowed a say, If I am not mistaken in the normal orders of nature if a female presents herself to a male they do it. At least in the dog world as I have known. Am I mistaken? I don't believe I am. If we are presenting ourselves in a willing manner trying to seduce a dog. That is just morally unjustified. The dog not only doesn't get to breed with "it's" mate but will psychologically think that whoever it is it's mate. Period, and if anyone can tell me with 100 percent certainty that any of those woman or men or whatever doing this shit is going to stay with the animal, never grow bored or out of a possible phase or fad they go through maybe then I would see it in a slightly different light. Regardless though they as humans are promising another species of mammal false insemination, and a false relationship which is morally wrong. For they do not understand how humans are so deceitful and underhanded.

note that I am not saying EVERYONE is underhanded and deceitful, or any of the insulting things I said about the humans. Also note that I am not taking a stab at intelligence of anything. Some things are just how they are though. I speak with my guts. Not with shallow words that won't reach any ears.

Giant rant about how cows should be treated better and etc.

Spoiler (click to show/hide):

For example, Veal, amirite?

I love meat, and the way I see it, animals aren't any more hurt by the treatment they get than we project on them to be. Animals are incapable of forward-thinking, and they are incapable of communication. Considering the two of these, the only animal that I know of that is ever "hurt" while being slaughtered is pigs, as they have a dim recognition of the fact that they're going to die. Cows, sheep, and other livestock are not aware that they're going to die, and all slaughter is carried out with focus on making sure the animals don't feel pain.

You can say that we're "robbing them of their potential to be happy in a field somewhere", but they can't care because they can't know that there's something better (no communicative skills), and they don't have the capability to wonder about those things even if they had the knowledge of something better (underdeveloped frontal lobe).

Also, even if they were hurt I don't care, as I don't believe in the afterlife and I don't care about livestock because of their lack of care for me and their inability to communicate or make themselves and individual.

1. I love meat too, it's basically why we have canines. I however do not agree that animals do not know death is on their door when they get repeatedly bludgeoned with a hammer. (This does happen on some farms. To lazy to pull up links like I did with the shampoo) Most animals can not think more then on instinct. That is true enough, although to say they aren't capable of knowing their going to die? I am sure there's many things that can be shown to disagree on that. Humans are ridiculous in their presumptions that we are so much higher that everything else means squat and that just because we have farms that kill humanely means ALL farms do. No, this is why we have foods like "Kosher" aka Jewish custom to make the animal suffer as less as possible, Kosher can also be described as any kind of food that has been approved to be humanely killed and etc etc. Point is, there wouldn't be a different company, if all meat was being killed humanely. Or as humanely as possible because we are to lazy just to put a bullet through the animals heads instead of bludgeoning it to death as I mentioned earlier.

2. I don't think anyone feels we are robbing them of anything, other then a better life which honestly makes the meat better = free range non-corn fed cows = way better quality meat compared to corn fed cows. Only difference is the quality of life, and the cost of said fields. People are ass holes period and you can put any label you want on it (goes out to anyone that says anything about it) to make yourselves feel better when you bite into that steak or that hamburger. Honestly, I see them as stinky cows, I don't really like cows. I hardly eat hamburger or steak anymore because I can't afford Kosher most of the time, but I know for a fact that cows moo a lot happier on nicer open plained farms then on all the dang documentaries I see of them crammed into those Metal sheds and milked to death or Crammed into those muddy feces fields and mulling around waiting for their next corn delivery.
(As a side note on the people are assholes thing. You know why Mad Cow disease existed? It's because we grounded up COW with the corn and fED it to the other cows!)

3. The last bit made me laugh because it really makes no sense. It's nothing against you but come on?
Because cows don't care about you, you don't care about the cows? and just because you don't believe in the after life doesn't mean morally you shouldn't care about other animals. Thinking: "OH I am not afraid of hell or think there's a place worth getting into so I am going to just say burn mother fuckers, not caring for their pain" Isn't that kind of a moral dilemma? I mean it's like saying "The Jews didn't do anything for me during world war two, why should we save them from the holocaust camps, especially if we don't believe in any repercussions from not caring?" And you could argue effectively that yeah, they have their own thoughts, and yeah, the capability to care and communicate (although we don't really know if cows have a form of communication and caring or not.) The point I am making is you are condemning living creatures to death just because it doesn't realize it's about 3 times as heavy as a human and could effectively stampede right through gates and be a free cow? Where would we be then? None of that meat you want and we got rampaging cows that finally realized we are taking several things from them.

We say we are so dominate, that we are so supreme yet we can't even take care of ourselves, much less cows. COWS We can't take care of cows. Where does that lead us?

[BlueLight]

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2231

This is the thread on animal care and kill for meat. Go there since this thread has very little to do with animal deaths and much less with eating meat.

[Smackman]

yeah fuck it

[BlueLight]

yeah fuck it

Your point

[Zeus Kabob]

Ren basically answered this but I like my two cents to be in here too.
(Note this may have offensive things to some people, but I do explain I am not trying to do so. so if you read it do not rage at me )

Spoiler (click to show/hide):

How many people saying it is wrong are vegetarians? If you can happily raise an animal in a shit environment and kill it just so you can eat it, you cannot claim that an action that pleasures both individuals is "taking advantage".

Many people say it's not "right" to be a vegetarian, I have never really heard anyone saying it was flat out wrong. I am sure some people have heard it including yourself though so I will call that on experience rather then majority.
Honestly. I could never raise an animal in a shit environment and kill it just for food. (See Rant below for more details) I would feel really horrible about it. So I can say for a fact that an action that pleasures the HUMAN and MAYBE the animal (How do we know it's not JUST instinct to breed?) Regardless of the situation whether it pleasures one or the other or both. I find it taking advantage of the animal for the animal has no say in the matter given we can not communicate with them. I would fully agree with you that people that say they don't care how animals are treated that they eat can not really make a judgement call due to their (You don't have to read it.)morally askew minds,(Sorry if it offends people but I feel it's true)they of course can have an opinion. But I think it's going to weigh a lot less in an argument if that was brought up.
I find that animals are being taken advantage of because they aren't really able to or much less allowed a say, If I am not mistaken in the normal orders of nature if a female presents herself to a male they do it. At least in the dog world as I have known. Am I mistaken? I don't believe I am. If we are presenting ourselves in a willing manner trying to seduce a dog. That is just morally unjustified. The dog not only doesn't get to breed with "it's" mate but will psychologically think that whoever it is it's mate. Period, and if anyone can tell me with 100 percent certainty that any of those woman or men or whatever doing this shit is going to stay with the animal, never grow bored or out of a possible phase or fad they go through maybe then I would see it in a slightly different light. Regardless though they as humans are promising another species of mammal false insemination, and a false relationship which is morally wrong. For they do not understand how humans are so deceitful and underhanded.

note that I am not saying EVERYONE is underhanded and deceitful, or any of the insulting things I said about the humans. Also note that I am not taking a stab at intelligence of anything. Some things are just how they are though. I speak with my guts. Not with shallow words that won't reach any ears.

Giant rant about how cows should be treated better and etc.

Spoiler (click to show/hide):

For example, Veal, amirite?

I love meat, and the way I see it, animals aren't any more hurt by the treatment they get than we project on them to be. Animals are incapable of forward-thinking, and they are incapable of communication. Considering the two of these, the only animal that I know of that is ever "hurt" while being slaughtered is pigs, as they have a dim recognition of the fact that they're going to die. Cows, sheep, and other livestock are not aware that they're going to die, and all slaughter is carried out with focus on making sure the animals don't feel pain.

You can say that we're "robbing them of their potential to be happy in a field somewhere", but they can't care because they can't know that there's something better (no communicative skills), and they don't have the capability to wonder about those things even if they had the knowledge of something better (underdeveloped frontal lobe).

Also, even if they were hurt I don't care, as I don't believe in the afterlife and I don't care about livestock because of their lack of care for me and their inability to communicate or make themselves and individual.

1. I love meat too, it's basically why we have canines. I however do not agree that animals do not know death is on their door when they get repeatedly bludgeoned with a hammer. (This does happen on some farms. To lazy to pull up links like I did with the shampoo) Most animals can not think more then on instinct. That is true enough, although to say they aren't capable of knowing their going to die? I am sure there's many things that can be shown to disagree on that. Humans are ridiculous in their presumptions that we are so much higher that everything else means squat and that just because we have farms that kill humanely means ALL farms do. No, this is why we have foods like "Kosher" aka Jewish custom to make the animal suffer as less as possible, Kosher can also be described as any kind of food that has been approved to be humanely killed and etc etc. Point is, there wouldn't be a different company, if all meat was being killed humanely. Or as humanely as possible because we are to lazy just to put a bullet through the animals heads instead of bludgeoning it to death as I mentioned earlier.

2. I don't think anyone feels we are robbing them of anything, other then a better life which honestly makes the meat better = free range non-corn fed cows = way better quality meat compared to corn fed cows. Only difference is the quality of life, and the cost of said fields. People are ass holes period and you can put any label you want on it (goes out to anyone that says anything about it) to make yourselves feel better when you bite into that steak or that hamburger. Honestly, I see them as stinky cows, I don't really like cows. I hardly eat hamburger or steak anymore because I can't afford Kosher most of the time, but I know for a fact that cows moo a lot happier on nicer open plained farms then on all the dang documentaries I see of them crammed into those Metal sheds and milked to death or Crammed into those muddy feces fields and mulling around waiting for their next corn delivery.
(As a side note on the people are assholes thing. You know why Mad Cow disease existed? It's because we grounded up COW with the corn and fED it to the other cows!)

3. The last bit made me laugh because it really makes no sense. It's nothing against you but come on?
Because cows don't care about you, you don't care about the cows? and just because you don't believe in the after life doesn't mean morally you shouldn't care about other animals. Thinking: "OH I am not afraid of hell or think there's a place worth getting into so I am going to just say burn mother fuckers, not caring for their pain" Isn't that kind of a moral dilemma? I mean it's like saying "The Jews didn't do anything for me during world war two, why should we save them from the holocaust camps, especially if we don't believe in any repercussions from not caring?" And you could argue effectively that yeah, they have their own thoughts, and yeah, the capability to care and communicate (although we don't really know if cows have a form of communication and caring or not.) The point I am making is you are condemning living creatures to death just because it doesn't realize it's about 3 times as heavy as a human and could effectively stampede right through gates and be a free cow? Where would we be then? None of that meat you want and we got rampaging cows that finally realized we are taking several things from them.

We say we are so dominate, that we are so supreme yet we can't even take care of ourselves, much less cows. COWS We can't take care of cows. Where does that lead us?

I'm going to counter you on this. I've worked with free range buffalo, and they are utter dicks. All they want is to get in your shit and fuck it up. A good example is when they attempted to destroy every fence in their grazing area, that they killed most of the trees in the area by destroying the bark of said trees, etc. These are not peaceful and majestic creatures, they're dicks. Since they can't communicate with me, there's no possibility for me to change them from being dicks to being anything else, and I can't stand their dickery, so in that case, I say get food out of them.

In any case, I think that their lack of intelligence, lack of communicative skills (they don't have a language, don't be dense. Their "communication" is basically the 5-function language "horny, hungry, angry, hurt, tired", and they aren't even efficient in their communication of that.), and lack of the same moral structure that I have leads me not to care about their lives as important or sacred.

Also, every single one of you has acted detestably about the slaughter situation. If you care about how animals are slaughtered, pick your meat accordingly. If you aren't picking your meat out based on whether the practices are ethical, then you're doing nothing to change the situation. If these circumstances are true, then it pisses me off to no end if you are to say "all slaughter should be stopped because some people slaughter unethically!". That's utter bullshit. Focus on the ethical slaughterhouses, support them with your business, don't simply throw slaughter out the window with "Someone's mis-treating a medium; destroy the medium!". This is similar to "There's piracy on the internet! Shut down the internet!".

/rant

[talin]

I'm not sure anyone was actually claiming that we should stop animal slaughter period, just unethical slaughter. In the thread, actually meant for THIS topic I myself claimed that we should have meat but simply treat the animals in a reasonably dignified manner. Which is basically saying, "support ethical animal treatment and make it quick and painless."

Anyway, we should probably lock this topic because no one has anything else to discuss about the original theme as far as I can see.

[Oopsy]

v.v When I voted I thought it ment furries and that kind of stuff. Then I looked on the other comments and now feel stupid.

[Nyshiv]

I meandered about in a community that was solely, and specifically, dedicated to people who were into bestiality. Reason I was there, was because I was looking to explore the idea in speculation, and that lead into finding a great community of people who were older and more mature, ultimately resulting in finding something to do... over-all.

However, while I was involved in said community, plenty of different opinions were thrown around, and argued, or rather, they were put out there and discussed, much more than argued. Some people liked to say that bestiality was a life-style. They lived their lives prior, and then in their aged years, they decided that it was something they enjoyed, and so they - with the animal's permission, for some of them - got into the habit of having sex with their respective pets. Now, I would like to note that 'animal's permission' may sound crazy, but while animals are not 100% sentient beings, they still do feel emotions, and depending on how you look at it, their consent is still viable argument in terms of the 'rape or consensual' debate. An animal, provided it has the mindset, may feel the need and/or wish to mate with a human, despite the audacity it would take for most people to perform such an act.

As I see it, personally, we are both a form of animal, just that we as humans have the ability to talk, and we are infinitely more ingenious than animals are, however, I figure - as my own opinion - that animals are not as ingenious as us for the sole fact that they don't have the body structure nor - in most cases - the thumbs pull off tasks that would otherwise deem someone 'full of ingenuity'.

So I suppose the argument here is... animals are every bit as equal to us as we are to them. The only difference being that we speak, and have thumbs, and create things that are - more or less - weapons of mass destruction and/or our potential down-fall. If anything, we're the stupid, color-blind ones with no real mental facilitation, and should be the ones considered 'without the right or ability to consider and/or consent to anything of a given nature'.

So you could say that in my time in the beast forum, I learned a few things and that in reality, if you wish to discriminate against the idea, you may as well learn more about it and attempt to understand the view among the people who indulge, as opposed to simply saying that it is crude, cruel, unfair, or whatever you wish to call it.