Renara Wrote:Well I think there are two major ethical questions:
Firstly, is it "right" to battery farm purely to cut costs when it leads to cruel conditions for the animals? I'd argue no, and there are a bunch of reasons; ethically of course it's simply cruel, and unnecessary, except to promote the kind of cheap, fast-foods that aren't exactly benefiting society anyway. On a more pragmatic note, it's also a hotbed for disease, and one of the reasons that things like SARS was able to spread so quickly, which is just plain bad for everyone.
Secondly, is the question on whether we
need meat or simply
want it. It's arguable that most western civilization doesn't need meat at all. There's no such thing as having the right to eat it; as predators (well, omnivores) we
used to
need meat to survive, which is fine, but when we no longer need the high protein, high fat content of meats when a vegetarian diet is now just as viable, do we really need it at all? Of course there are edge cases, as some places meat is the only viable food source, and harsher climates still genuinely need it due to extreme cold, remote location etc. There are other concerns as well; in particular, meat farming can be extremely wasteful, and is not ecologically friendly. Farming anything isn't exactly natural, but yields on crops can be very high, and provide a lot more of our nutritional requirements for the amount of resources required to produce them; it's harder work, and I for one just couldn't be happy on a purely vegetarian diet (I never got past hating vegetables
), but it's worth remembering that it's viable, given the right variety (since the protein is harder to provide).
1. I second the no, I find it silly and morally upsetting for several reasons. Most you stated, I will add a few more from my side;
People just are lazy now adays, so they don't want to exactly be a Shepard of sorts to the creatures. Much easier to manage when they are all packed together like they are on most farms I have heard of. Just seems ridiculous that we are doing it to make MORE money (As far as not using it to make the fields and water them and etc, so more like saving but I call it making more since they do not have to maintain it.) Where does the money even go? If not to the betterment of the animals obviously then what? I just don't understand people anymore honestly :/ .
2. Well honestly animal fats are more healthy for you then plant fats. It has been discovered that wheat and plant/french fry oils in fast food is actually the main thing causing obesity (Almost everyone is biologically rejecting wheat, and the reason they are getting big is because it's actually an allergen that the wheat produces.) I could go to mcd's everyday for the rest of my life. Ex: Take off the Bun, don't eat the fries with the veggie oil. Eat the burger and veg, and eat a mc flurry. and as long as I don't get a lactose disorder or something I could maintain myself on that for a good amount of time. OF course I would drink plenty of water and it wouldn't be my only food. But I wouldn't even have to exercise more then most people do (few miles a day jogging, few push ups, few sit ups etc) Just basic things.
I however agree with you that since we aren't being "hunters" or "foraging" for food unless you are doing a sport like foot ball or something very heated like or even living in a cold climate as you said. You really are not needing the extra protein to build reserves. You don't really need all that extra stuff. Your body just disposes it like it never was there. (Note: I personally follow the primal diet examples, given what I have learned and researched it's much healthier to eat primal, meaning all those veggie oils that are supposedly good for you vs animal oils is Bull shit the government feeds us (literally) It and basically this stuff is bad for you including and not limited to; Wheat, Flour, and Gluten.)
Renara Wrote:The main difficulty with sustaining the vegetarian diet is that there's not enough demand for it. Specifically, plants naturally produce one of the two proteins we need in food, while herbivores produce the other as a natural part of their digestion. So yes, in a way meat is the ideal complement for that other half. However, it's also naturally occurring in certain foods, specifically nuts, types of oats and (I think) soy, and you can actually get it more efficiently from these foods than through meat.
However, getting the right quantity of nuts etc. is very expensive, and the majority of them are only farmed for flavouring so they don't exist in enough quantity, not enough are produced locally so shipping adds cost and so-on. This is partly why modern vegetarians often use supplements since they're much more concentrated so once produced the cost is comparatively low; though in that particular case you actually end up trading ethical eating with regards to eating them for unethical treatment of foreign workers in the places that produce these supplements! If the nutritional side of things were more easily met however, then a vegetarian diet could actually be fairly affordable, possibly even more so given that meat can actually be pretty expensive.
There are also other health issues; western civilization consumes far more meat than we should on average, and without the activity to counterbalance it its very easy to become overweight on that kind of diet. Meat also includes a fairly high concentration of toxins compared to plants; we can metabolize this, but only if we're eating appropriate amounts for our level of activity. It's perfectly possible to become a fat vegetarian as well mind you, but it'd currently cost an awful lot, but wouldn't have quite the same health problems so in theory it'd be easier to burn off with some work. So yeah, it's partly an issue of waste as you say, as animals are being killed that don't need to be, just so that a large number of people can eat more than they need to, which is definitely wrong, regardless of the vegetarian or not side of things.
1. and 2. Honestly I vote taking vitamins for most of the things besides what meat provides. I eat chicken, and turkey and etc. Although I have never heard of being able to get the proteins more efficiently from those things you mentioned. I will have to look it up. I believe though that meat is a better source for those things period. It's more natural for humans to gain them from meat then from what you stated. I will explain why; Primal diets and statistics show us that we farmed very little and hunted for mostly everything. Of course there would be berry picking and fruits and nuts (But not to the extent of it giving enough protein I am sure, and given that even in today's world we can hardly obtain things ourselves unless we have them imported from certain areas and etc. The point is we didn't harvest Oats and Soy, we didn't harvest nuts to the extent that is needed to sustain ourselves on such things. We ate meat, We ate fish. (fish is a good alternative to meat except for the mercury that's being discovered in many fish at dangerous levels. Causing many problems.) I don't see our ancestors using agriculture for a very long time. Regardless of how civilized we have become, we still have instincts. We still have certain preferences that are hardwired into our DNA (Such as big breasted woman with wide hips. Aka perfect motherly material, large birthing canal and milk sacks. and for woman it's a whole other ball park, but for the most part they like ripped guys that aren't overly muscly as they see them more of a threat subconsciously. But they want security as much as any other personality trait. I am not debating this really, or asking for other opinions I am just saying it as how I see the majority of the populace acting and from what I have learned.) and natural habits. (I like to think we have come past a lot of things, brutality being one of them, and compassion being something we have learned.) *Still feels Vitamins is a good way to get most of what you need for cheap.
without killing little plants. D:3.You are actually looking at it wrong as far as my beliefs and research shows Renara. It's really the breads and processed shit. Not so much the meat we consume. If anything we put more bread into our bodies then anything else, almost everything is breaded and deep fried, and almost everything has wheat in it which makes it a very annoying thing to pick out groceries that are gluten free, or ask for a gluten-free pizza (most places are doing it now which is pretty cool I think) I still eat wheat, I am not saying EVERYONE is completely allergic to wheat and some people may never notice anything. The point is that the people that are obese. Are most likely looking at the wrong problem, it's not the meat fats (which by the way are the healthiest) it's the fats that are not natural, that we process like veggie fats. (Yes butter is processed with animal fats sometimes but! It's still animal fat which makes it better for you then Veggie butter.) and I am not saying all veggie oils are bad. Olive oil is actually quite good for you, but it's not like people are going to use that for a lot of things. Doesn't bring out the same flavor in all the addictive foods that companies have spend millions of dollars endorsing, and the government spends reinforcing.
3/4Vegetarians that are fat are using veggi oiled butters and probably eating bread crumbs in their salad which directly makes them fat. If they minus those two things the SWELLING will go down. (My mom is the perfect example. She was a very large woman and almost died due to the inflammation of her tissue causing water to actually separate from her veins and if she didn't stop she would have drowned. She then stopped eating wheat completely. Started "deflating" as I saw it No lose skin or anything but it was just the way she seemed to "lose the weight" so fast.. she can run up the stairs. I never have seen her do that. Ever, it's the Gluten and the wheat :/ Government knows it too..That's why it's on the pyramid just another money racket. Then diet companies make a bundle selling shit to saps that think if they eat some bread with a dietary drink like slimfast they will lose weight. When really they
)
Finally I would like to see where the meat contains MORE toxins then plants (including wheat) please Renara, if you happen to have some linkies I am now interested.
*Rants about corn syrup and a government conspiracy*
(Just as bad as those commercials for corn syrup. "It's just corn" Says the happy couple on their farm surrounded by acres of corn fields. I honestly laughed my ass off. Yes it's just corn that **Has been modified in a factory and processed about four or five different ways to my knowledge.** But really it's just corn people...Just...gooey form
....not buying it. Honestly it's one of the worse things for your body as well. It's just in almost everything. We feed farm animals corn and we feed ourselves corn. WE are fattening ourselves up for a hypnotic race of aliens...the government is being controlled I tell you!! It's a conspiracy!! RUN RUN! We are all pigs and cows! RUN!)
We printed off sheets that told us the "what you can and can not eat" stuff and that's all we really needed, I hope these sites will work fine.