Strive for Power - Fantasy Slave Management game

[Lucky777]

Well, basically my only problems with this game are related to the plot, whether sidequest or main ending.

Even my own level zero codewizardry skills were more'n enough for me to fiddle with the ending, and I can ignore sidequests, so I'm perfectly happy with the game.

...Well, still not big on some of the new art, but old versions are saved on my computer for a reason.

Endgame-ish event spoilers

Spoiler (click to show/hide):

That said, I'd really like to know a bit more about the original plot, like what the frickety fuck Hade was planning.
Like, you can get a KIND of insight into that if you're a human player (and maybe if you are other races but you do like ... 4+ specific things???)
But ... that insight doesn't in any way whatsoever explain... lots of things.
Like why Orcs or mercs may be working with him, or ESPECIALLY why he had people attack a random Dryad that was around Frostford...
*SHRUGS*
Hell, that was like ...60 to 80% of my reason for FIGHTING him.
...Maybe he was doing it to HELP OUT Frostford vs skinrot, not to harm it vs new source of food, but either way, I don't fucking know.

Maybe the plot will be expanded upon greatly in time for version 1.0.

[maverickk]

Well, basically my only problems with this game are related to the plot, whether sidequest or main ending.

Even my own level zero codewizardry skills were more'n enough for me to fiddle with the ending, and I can ignore sidequests, so I'm perfectly happy with the game.

...Well, still not big on some of the new art, but old versions are saved on my computer for a reason.

Endgame-ish event spoilers

Spoiler (click to show/hide):

That said, I'd really like to know a bit more about the original plot, like what the frickety fuck Hade was planning.
Like, you can get a KIND of insight into that if you're a human player (and maybe if you are other races but you do like ... 4+ specific things???)
But ... that insight doesn't in any way whatsoever explain... lots of things.
Like why Orcs or mercs may be working with him, or ESPECIALLY why he had people attack a random Dryad that was around Frostford...
*SHRUGS*
Hell, that was like ...60 to 80% of my reason for FIGHTING him.
...Maybe he was doing it to HELP OUT Frostford vs skinrot, not to harm it vs new source of food, but either way, I don't fucking know.

Maybe the plot will be expanded upon greatly in time for version 1.0.

I thought plot was pretty self-explanatory, but maybe I just failed.

Spoiler (click to show/hide):

Basically Hade seeks to reform The Order (which functions as a government) to make it more autocratic and focused towards human race, as opposed to being fairly liberal as it is now. The main idea behind his motivation is that other races should be treated inferiorly and kept much more in check. His followers generally share this view or simply follow his ambitions. Garthor, being one of them, with your help pushes away dark elf tribe and seizes more power around Gorn.
Frostford's attack happens mainly because you interfere and Zoe establishes the contact with forest spirit. On one hand, they don't really like the whole idea, and on the other, Hade desires to weaken any potential strong force Frostford might present in future coup d'etat.

I've hinted upon slavers grouping up with him in few places, and planned to expand bit further on it, as they actually play major part here.

Spoiler (click to show/hide):

One of The Main Order's focuses were easing up social distress, eventually pushing around slavery practice. However, slavery, due being an insanely profitable business, has very rich and powerful followers who realize it is a direct threat to their position. Hence why they are in fact the biggest sponsor of Hade's company.

[Lucky777]

ACTUAL PLOT-DISCUSSION SPOILERS THROUGHOUT ENTIRE POST

I thought plot was pretty self-explanatory, but maybe I just failed.

Spoiler (click to show/hide):

Basically Hade seeks to reform The Order (which functions as a government) to make it more autocratic and focused towards human race, as opposed to being fairly liberal as it is now. The main idea behind his motivation is that other races should be treated inferiorly and kept much more in check. His followers generally share this view or simply follow his ambitions. Garthor, being one of them, with your help pushes away dark elf tribe and seizes more power around Gorn.
Frostford's attack happens mainly because you interfere and Zoe establishes the contact with forest spirit. On one hand, they don't really like the whole idea, and on the other, Hade desires to weaken any potential strong force Frostford might present in future coup d'etat.

It's probably less that you failed, and more that I missed certain relevant cues or hints.

Spoiler (click to show/hide):

So the intervention was specifically to prevent the establishment of Frostford's new food-source.
That makes sense from a perspective of "Keeping everything dependent on Wimborn so revolt or disorder is more difficult".
It especially makes sense if he was planning to be discriminatory against wolf-people, although... in Hade's ending there was actually no hint of that?
I got the one where Theron was happy with me.
That's fair enough, but ... does Hade even have anything against wolfmen, and if so, what and why?

Also, "The whole idea" Hade didn't like was what, nonhumans (dryad) helping other nonhumans (wolfmanz)?

I'd then ask about the alliance between some random Orcs and Hade, but I assume Hade has read as much lore as I have (and much more) so he knows Orcs
were the results of failed experiments upon plain old humans?

If that's so though, then why does he dislike the beastraces, who can have like ... at least HALF human blood in them?

(Also, in this Mythos, I haven't seen much reference to half-elves? Elves and humans can interbreed, yes? What about things like half-fairies?)


--
I saw something when peering through the files that suggested Theron could end up attacking you in some scenario, by the way.
I should look again, more closely.
What was that though, is it if you uh ... try to fire him, or is it if you let Zoe die?
I don't think I've ever actually gone back to Frostford after letting Zoe die.
... Actually come to think of it, I don't recall if I ever just LET her die as opposed to losing a slave in the attempt and thus reloading instantly.

I've hinted upon slavers grouping up with him in few places, and planned to expand bit further on it, as they actually play major part here.

Spoiler (click to show/hide):

One of The Main Order's focuses were easing up social distress, eventually pushing around slavery practice. However, slavery, due being an insanely profitable business, has very rich and powerful followers who realize it is a direct threat to their position. Hence why they are in fact the biggest sponsor of Hade's company.

Lovely to hear that there's going to be a bit of further expansion on some things!

Spoiler (click to show/hide):

So The Main Order intended to extinguish slavery?
I don't know anything about that, but perhaps it's mentioned in some sidequest.
Until they're eventually overhauled so the player doesn't randomly do things I'd never do, I've avoided many of those like the plague.

I don't ... see why or how the Mage Order would intend to extinguish slavery though.

Slaves are a convenient source of mana, as correctly mentioned somewhere in the backstory, after all.
As the backstory and Maple also mention, slavery as a corrective measure for PoWs and criminals is more humane than execution.
As such, an order of MAGES (mana-users) would, I'd have assumed, have no interest whatsoever in extinguishing the practice, especially in its more humane forms.


One of the main things I'm not seeing, too, is why Hade felt the need to turn to violence.
His views make perfect sense, in that Elves, as the STARTERS AND losers of the war - a war of EXTERMINATION - should be subordinated to humans.
But Humans stripped elves of their Destruction magic power, so Elves' smaller numbers basically mean they ARE subordinated to humans as necessary, already.

They can still occupy positions of power etc, but the Order is mainly human-centric, and even if that changes, it seems to be a meritocracy.
So the best rise to the top, as they should regardless of origin.
Are the elves in Amberguard somehow doing something to tick him off, even though they are ruled by the Order and its humans already?
Or is he really afraid that Elves actually ARE the best, so they're bound to rise to the top of the order eventually?
Doesn't seem so Hade-like, that last one, if he really believes (which I DON'T) that humans are the PINNACLE of evolution/racial superiority.


There's a larger world ticking underneath the surface we're exposed to here that I'm somewhat interested to see.
Even if it's just in the form of stuff in the library, I'd probably read it.
(Incidentally, I saw something in the files about Ayneris' fighting ability setting her apart from the other slaves; in my house she'd just be one amongst many.
...
Like ALL; that many, once they've turned loyal, anyway.)

[Featherruler]

What kind of fetishes will be in the game?

[Evangelion-01]

My 2 cent for the plot discussion (may contain story spoilers ... you have been warned :þ)
speaking from takeing a look to the real worlds history a subjogated people are prown to rising back to power and than useing their time of subjogatoin as reason to fight back even more brutal.
Take a look at World War I - Germany was subjugated and military cripled in fear of becomeing another thread...which happened exactly when Hitler arose to power and World War II started.
I had to take a big gues, but that part of history sounds a lot like what COULD happen to elves. It just takes one charismatic leader and an incident of enough significance to trigger a revolution or a war of considerable size.
From what I get of the story so far Hade could actually be that trigger by preventing it, if he is self aware enough he might see the need to strike first and prevent any war from starting, or make it a much weaker one by crippling his opposition before they can join and become a thread. Again this happened before in real life dureing World War II.
And I am not so sure how much of the slavery system the Mage guild would actualy try to put out.
From what we know at that point (follow Tisha's and Cali's Quest) illegal raids of villages and abduction of citizens is a common Event in this world. declaering slavery illegal could only be meant for enslaveing free people, if criminals are enslaved a court should make that decision hencefor there could still be a slavery system, yet not by the current size, which would certainly be an issue for the rich and powerful that depend on that system at this point. By comparison to the real world the USA should be mentioned here and their own history of slavery.
Or if you get much further back in time the roman empire would be the perfect example of what could be or happen in hte games near future.

'Since I am not involved with the story or anything this is only highly speculative....but it's the best I can come up with my logic and the information I was given to this point.

[Lucky777]

I mean, it's ALREADY illegal to forcefully enslave free people, though.
Your reputation drops and I believe if it drops far enough patrols start to hunt for you.
I say "I believe" because I've never done it, but it was totally there in the patch notes at some point.

Also, to be fair, I'm no historian, and I arguably know rather more about Jack-o-Nine's Eternal Rome than ... IRL's ACTUAL Rome.
Regardless though, I know Rome did have slavery, but I don't know what you're referring to specifically when you talk about the game's near future in that respect.
Based on the miniscule amount I know, I believe the fall of Rome had nothing to do with slavery, at any rate.

[Evangelion-01]

but free roaming slavers can still sell their slaves in the market.
If the slaveing system was to be remodeled so ONLY an accepted court could declare slavery that would be a big hit for the "slaveing industry" and cheap workforce would drop significantly, which would cut into profit of other industries aswell.
Certainly if you stoop low enough to be considered a criminal you would be hunted but from what we have seen in actual politics in towns and the villages that is hardly enough of a deterrent from keeping bandits of burning entire villages and turning the survivors into slaves.

Rome was heavily depend on tributes from its conquered provinces aswell as the slaves provided by them. Their own economic was not up to par with their expansion so faminity would have been insured if not useing slaves in the provinces and than ship the crop to rome

[Lucky777]

Hmm.
And what, you suspect the Mage's Order might have been intending to move towards better regulation?
I mean... if so, fair enough I guess, that step on their part seems plausible.
I don't know that they'd limit it to legit Courts, but any kind of crackdown would cause a loss to those who relied on illegal slaving.
Well, who knows, if that kind of plan was afoot, that might annoy some unscrupulous traders, yes indeed.

I dunno, though.

Maybe we'll find out at one point or another.

[Evangelion-01]

After World War II the allied nations and the UDSSR were faceing a destroyed germany and had to decide how to procede...would they simply repeat their last action hopeing Hitler was a unique phenomenon or would they actually attempt something to prevent another World War?
Mirroring that conflict into the game the mage Guild might want to prevent a World War II by lessering the restriction and subjugation of the elves and the other races.
Getting them to accept a united front by granteing them legitimation and self-determination...maybe inviteing them into the guild itself and building it to an UN (takeing from the real world again)
Certainly that would be a world end scenario for raceists and those who depend on the current status quo

[Lucky777]

But they're IN the guild in the current status quo, and that's not even a spoiler, really.
Like
As far as I can tell from that one lady in the Capital, they've BEEN in the guild for quite some time.
Maybe she's just old and her position isn't anywhere near as old as she is.
But she spoke with the top man pretty much like he was a barely superior equal.

As to the other races, the Guild's official policy has always been that they're cool with them.

Or so it seems as far as I can remember.
I forget WHICH piece of lore outlines that.
Either it's in the intro, in the library, or... somewhere out-of-game.
I really think it's intro or library though.
Ain't got too much time today, sadly, but I'm intending to go look back into all the lore I can find later.

[Evangelion-01]

If you start a game as a beastfolk you can however see how the overall policy is applied inisde the guild.
Your first meeting with a guild official to get invited to the guild can have some very raceisting comments depending on your chosen species...certainly he is no friend of the "Lust for Mana" faction either...but the last time I played as wolfmen there was more hostility in that meeting than if you started as a human.
Being allowed to join an institution but being pushed out by those who have the ability to do so is also a very common practice in a semi legal operation.
The Guild invites all to live with them, but comunity (see the Butchers comments in Cali's story) can still make other species live a hard one. Which make most other species to stay out of human lands if they can avoid it. You can never see a fairy or elf when traveling the area around winbourn, but you can meet humans outside of frostford.
Gorn seem to be less than appealing to most other races it seems.

At the current point in game history the guilds standeing is more of an ideal to appeal to the masses but sadly is hardly applied in reality...same as the promised protection by the guild as we have discussed before

[Lucky777]

Fair'nough; I've never played beastkin.

The Chancellor's kind of an asshole even if you're a human though, and I didn't catch any worse impression when I started as a Dark Elf.
...ADMITTEDLY I wasn't paying much attention on that run, though.
That was just to get the buffest dudes and test out pre 0.5.4 Heavy Armour.

And yeah, I think it's mentioned that wolf-kin especially are viewed with distrust by some of the general population, prolly 'cause of their combat superiority or somethin'. What little I saw of Cali's quest does suggest that the butcher takes an especially dim view of them, yeah.
On the other hand though, you'd be pissed off at anyone stealing your shit, so there's that too.
And one of his complaints IS that they DO get to run free like everyone else.
So I mean, guild policy being favourable towards them seems like the status quo already.

[Evangelion-01]

Like I mentioned there is no official repression on the guild side, but they don't fight prejudice against other races either, nor do they have any active project to support them.
The butcher mentions that Beastfolk preys on human herds and liveing of their hard labour and good will.
The fact that such oppinions can be raised in the middle of the market were a majority of bystanders can pick up on it is rather concerning.
A goverment that actually applied to those ideals would have the city guard to step in and investigate wether such a speach wouldn't hurt the guilds official statement regardeing all races.
Them keeping quiet and alloweing prejudice and half truth cloud the oppinion of the common folk, raising hostility against other races is a sign of their own splintering (At best).
Again compairing to reality thats how Hitler initiated the hate against Jews dureing his reign (of terror)
Btw. back than Jews had some standeing in society, they were mostly hated duo to prejudice and generations of building on distrust and half truthes

[Lucky777]

Hmm.
Rather than splintering, I more think it's the Guild not giving a fuck and paying attention to more important things, like the day to day running of their... stuff.
The guild's position is not that everyone must be politically correct; it's just that the Guild tolerates and does not discriminate against nonhuman races.

Probably except for elves.

But even the elves don't seem to be so badly off.

[Evangelion-01]

which would be OK if they were just an institution in a larger system gevoerend by others...
but they ARE the government, it is to be expected that they tackle such issues and provide solutions...which in turn splinters the guild.
Those that joined for the privileges that the guild in the current status quo provide will certainly fight movements that try to change the statues quo to modernize the society for a better future for everyone.
And every outside source with a stake in the conflict will certainly try to get involved one way or another.
Supporting a revolution group that will benefit their position of power is probably the easiest way to do so

[Lucky777]

Those that like the status quo will resist changes to it, that's perfectly reasonable and foreseeable; agreed.
The current status quo appears to be that the guild does not discriminate against nonhumans (and to some extent EVEN elves), fair enough.
It also appears to be that they don't care much if the general people do so discriminate in their private capacity; well and good.

Minor spoilers start here

Spoiler (click to show/hide):

The only person seeking to change the status quo at this point that we see... is Hade, and he wants to change guild policy so they DO discriminate against elves.

Two things I'm unclear on are :
1) Why he wants to change it strongly enough that he's willing to risk his life, and
2) Whether he wants to change it so that they do discriminate against the animalpeeps as well, and if so, why.

Unscrupulous slavers joining him might do so if the GUILD wants to change the status quo so that enslaving freemen gets more difficult, and thus less profitable.
It's already illegal, but if the guild is going to step up its enforcement of those laws, the ones who benefit from lax enforcement will be annoyed.
That the guild IS going to do so is just speculation, but based on what we're told (in this thread, maybe as opposed to ingame so far) it seems to make some sense.

Similarly, if the guild begins to change the second mentioned part of the status quo, and seeks to interfere with general people's freedom to discriminate against animals and/or elves if they're so inclined, then there are people who would want to oppose them, yes. But there's no suggestion ingame that they're going to do that.
And I find it much less plausible that they would.

Them taking steps to make the (already very dangerous) practice of raiding villages even more dangerous for perpetrators seems more likely.

[Evangelion-01]

I think Hade's motivation can actually be pretty easily explained takeing human nature into consideration.
Compareing to reality again... Hitler never had any negative experiences with Jews or foreigners on his own. He fought in World War I but was such a bad soldier that he got himself send home pretty much after deployment.
But historians found that the nature of his hate against those parties are a result of his upbringing, as his father was a hardliner raceist poisening his mind throughout his childhood.
So if Hade is heavily inspired by a person with a similiar mindset/history from real world history you would have your explanation regardeing his motives.
Also Hade could jump this train in hope of aquiering true Power by being the leading force of such a revolution.

If he had contact to certain high members in the guild they could have promised him that there would be no interception or prosecution of him and his members by the guid, as they would interfere in the council.
Motivated by no real opposition the gains would certainly outweigth the risk.

Also since there is no official statement by the guild how they intend to reform the practice on the current slavery system fears by those benefitting from the current system would fuel Hades attempts even better...if he was a charismatic man he would certainly be able to increase those fears with rumors and maybe lies.

[Lucky777]

Interesting theories indeed.

Perhaps we'll be shown more in-game at some time.

Anyway, regrettably, I gotta fuck off.

[maverickk]

Spoiler (click to show/hide):

Hade does not necessarily detests other races to the point of rejecting working with them, he realizes he needs every ally he may get, hence why he's fine with siding with some orcs and main character. The idea is to get rid of The Order and once he's in power, he will have greater options.

As I said, The Order is lead by quite liberalistic/progressive individuals and slavery put big strain on the society, even though its heavily regulated already. As world is relatively peaceful and sorcery is not that mandatory for survival, they realize that slavery does more bad than good.

Looks like I should add some more story pieces regarding Hade's intentions and connections with slavers.

[Lucky777]

Spoiler (click to show/hide):

Hahaha, very interesting.
There's a possibility (though not a large one, given his actions in Frostford) that Lucky Canon might change to siding with Hade, then.
I'm very much against him trying to shoot muh cool dryads or starve muh cool dogs, but I'm all for sex-slaves and mana-surplus forever!
If the Order is looking to shut the thing down entirely, rather than just to actually better ENFORCE the near perfectly fine regulations it ALREADY has...
Then flipping sides slowly becomes a slightly more real possibility.

For my own part, I'm still not sure it'd call for violence even then, though, especially on the level of assassination, or of "attacking the Order Headquarters".

Is it that the democratic/non-slave majority position IS to retain slavery and the order is looking to change the status-quo and ignore that anyway?

Also, is there going to be a faction that essentially maintains the status quo with better actual enforcement of the existing regulations?

I'm not too huge on trying to put more pressure on the elves or dogmans, but I'm also not looking to manumit all my delicious mana-fountain employees.