Breeding Season: Alpha Version 5.3 [Update 11/3/14]

[Ironvein]

I've seen comments about the trait "No Downsides" not working for earlier editions and I'd like to point out that it is still not working under some situations here too.

One situation that I actually remember is when a Dickwolf with "Slick" mated with a Holstasaurus with "No Downsides" and "Fertility 1". The Dickwolf somehow dropped her DEX.

Yeah, I've been noticing that too. About the only common point I've seen is, in my case, the victim who was supposed to be protected from stat lowering seems to always be my oldest monster. Even then, it's not lowered by every stat lowering monster; just if one monster can get through, that monster will always get through. Gentle, No Downsides, Horse Cum, Harpy Grease; none of the matter when it happens.

Also, I'm not sure on this one, someone help test... is the stat that lowers one that the victim would normally boost (i.e. STA + vs STa -)?

That's what happened on my last test.

Okay, the previous wasn't very professional or logical. Let's start over.

Unit Testing:

Spoiler (click to show/hide):

What we KNOW:

1) Occasionally, monsters will be affected by the mate's modifiers despite abilities/items used to prevent it from happening.

2) After some preliminary testing I've found that the bug is limited to specific couples. I had one monster activate the bug, but then switched partners and bug doesn't activate.

3) The bug is persistent despite trying another method. Same couple, bug still activates wither I used Grease or Cum.

What we can INFER:

1) The bug is probably not the status itself (due to item 3 above), but somehow the check for the status is being missed or misevaluated due to some unknown condition (item 2).

What we need to TEST (i.e. things we do NOT know):

1) Is the failure a 'two-way street'? Meaning if both monster had negative mods and precautions taken for both, do both monster get affected or just one.

2) Does it matter 'who's on top?' Meaning who is orange and who is blue.

Data to gather:

1) Test results of above.

2) Monster stats; start with just breed modifiers and breeds of both.

3) Barns currently owned at the time. (This is long shot, but it's a controllable variable).

PURPOSE:

Figure out the 'condition' that triggers the bug. That can help HBomb find the error (if he doesn't already know that is).

If you come across the bug, plz help figure out the specific problem by answering the questions in the above spoiler. Currently while the issue is known, noone knows the why or how and the data given is too random to narrow it down atm.

[FloraMeriadoc]

I've seen comments about the trait "No Downsides" not working for earlier editions and I'd like to point out that it is still not working under some situations here too.

One situation that I actually remember is when a Dickwolf with "Slick" mated with a Holstasaurus with "No Downsides" and "Fertility 1". The Dickwolf somehow dropped her DEX.

No downsides doesn't always work not sure if it's a bug or if it's normal but when you breed a creature that have higher stats

than the other one and if one of them have a minus it will drop in this case your holstaurus had her stat lowered because

your dickwolf had higher stat than the one you breed I know because I tested it with Cruel and no downside the one who had

cruel had 1000 of each stats and the other one didn't had that much but had downside and the stat was still lowered

[Ironvein]

I've seen comments about the trait "No Downsides" not working for earlier editions and I'd like to point out that it is still not working under some situations here too.

One situation that I actually remember is when a Dickwolf with "Slick" mated with a Holstasaurus with "No Downsides" and "Fertility 1". The Dickwolf somehow dropped her DEX.

No downsides doesn't always work not sure if it's a bug or if it's normal but when you breed a creature that have higher stats

than the other one and if one of them have a minus it will drop in this case your holstaurus had her stat lowered because

your dickwolf had higher stat than the one you breed I know because I tested it with Cruel and no downside the one who had

cruel had 1000 of each stats and the other one didn't had that much but had downside and the stat was still lowered

First off: Slick effects the ability of the consumable, not the Monster. You are thinking Gentle, t4d44.

The bug involves 4 things when breeding with negative modifiers: Gentle, No Downsides, and the uses of Harpy Grease and Horse Cum.

All other traits need not apply as they do not contribute to the situation.

This is a perfect example of raw, unhelpful data.

Riddle me this Flora:

1) Did that Holstasaurs with No Downsides get her stats lowered by other monsters with negative modifiers or just that Dickwolf with Cruel?

2) Did you try switching positions (orange/blue) to see if it only worked one way?

3) You mentioned that you thought that because your dickwolf's stat was higher that it went through No Downsides... did you try lowering the Dickwolf's stat below the Holst stat and see if No Downsides worked then?

If you answered no to any of these, you haven't 'proven' anything. Try again.

[Ironvein]

Alright, first time to trigger the bug since setting up the unit test.

Subjects: Catgirl (STA+, WIL+) & Harpy (STA+, STR-).

Using Horse Cum and Harpy Grease both failed to protect the Catgirl (didn't have Gentle or No Downsides). Harpy did not affect others monsters when I breed with them; just this one Catgirl (had other Catgirls too and they were fine).

Swapping 'who's on top' did not have any effect; probably irrelevant.

Only had purchased the Harpy Avion at the time of occurrence. Bought the others to quickly check and no change, also likely irrelevant.

H-Bomb, is the check negative breed immunity a pretest or posttest to the breeding calculation? Meaning to you check the immunity before the calculation or after?

I'd advise to make it a posttest, because then you can do this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide):

int changeToStat = funcThatCalcsStatChange(monster monOrange, monster monBlue); // your calculation of stat change

if (changeToStat < 0 AND bool funcThisMonsterIsImmuneToStatDrops(monster monToChange)) then changeToStat = 0; // if changeToStat is negative and the monster is immune, changeToStat becomes 0.

funcApplyChanges(monster monToChange, int changeToStat); // Applies changes to the monster(s)

That should prevent this bug regardless of the cause. Considering the bug is so unique, it'll probably be easier to just prevent rather that find the cause and remove it.

[Ironvein]

New bug: I bought a monster from the store and the store suddenly cloned all the remaining monsters and added a new one. The monster I bought is in my group, so it didn't effect that. Unsure why it did that, but I did go to the clients and sold a monster to get money for the one I bought. Guessing there's something going on when interfacing between client and store.

[Ironvein]

Minor Bug: When you manually change the name of the monster, the quick escape (spacebar) stops functioning. You have to close the window by the X in the corner.

Oh another discovery, the 'immunity bug' seem to work both ways if both monsters have negative modifers. Had a standard wolf and harpie both dosed with grease and both were affected by the other's bad modifier.

[Ironvein]

New bug: I bought a monster from the store and the store suddenly cloned all the remaining monsters and added a new one. The monster I bought is in my group, so it didn't effect that. Unsure why it did that, but I did go to the clients and sold a monster to get money for the one I bought. Guessing there's something going on when interfacing between client and store.

Just noticed that when you sell a monster, the monster store refreshes with brand new stock; that doesn't really make sense and is probably the source of the above bug.

[WonderGamer]

Just noticed that when you sell a monster, the monster store refreshes with brand new stock; that doesn't really make sense and is probably the source of the above bug.

I noticed this as well, but I assume this was intended. The requirements to sell a monster get higher & higher each time you sell a monster. The restocked monsters after you sell a monster tend to have higher stats & higher purchase prices.

BTW guys: In case you haven't noticed, he set a date for the next update to be on the 1st. That date was missed & after monitoring the thread for a while, I decided to check his blog. Seems there have been some real-life problems that is preventing him from working on the game, so give him some breathing space; it's not the end of the world that this game has a delay on being updated.

[kaishin]

(snip)
This is a perfect example of raw, unhelpful data.
(snip)
If you answered no to any of these, you haven't 'proven' anything. Try again.

Don't you think you're being a little overly hostile there? Personally, I hadn't been paying attention to this thread for a while, and seeing this bug discussion had wanted to join in....only to not find any useful information pointing towards replicating the bug, other than Flora's post (high stat monster with negative modifiers being more likely to cause it). I had played it a bit recently, and had found No Downsides to be working as expected for the the whole time, so I was clueless as to where to start trying to test.

On the subject of the bug, I would have rather sent it to HartistaPipebomb for his judgment on it since I had to decompile/check the script to see what the cause was...but I can't PM, because I'm a newly registered user. My apologies to him if he doesn't approve.

If the stat/negative breeding modifier are high/strong enough on one monster, and the stat on the other monster is low enough, it just sets the stat to 0 on the other monster, without checking for things like Gentle or No Downsides. When it does this, it also doesn't lower the growth mod.

[Ironvein]

I noticed this as well, but I assume this was intended. The requirements to sell a monster get higher & higher each time you sell a monster. The restocked monsters after you sell a monster tend to have higher stats & higher purchase prices.

It may have in an early version but with the restock button, it is unnecessary and probably cause of the purchasing bug I found earlier. Personally, I think the store have a numbers of issues with it, mostly because it gives too much of an advantage. The point of the game is to breed your monsters to make them stronger, but often you can purchase the monster you need for the clients without having to put much work into them. However, it is more of a game balance issue than anything else so it's okay now for testing purposes; but if this is the final version of the store, then there is some work to be done.

[WonderGamer]

However, it is more of a game balance issue than anything else so it's okay now for testing purposes; but if this is the final version of the store, then there is some work to be done.

I would have to disagree with you there. Personally I think the restock on sale of a monster makes sense given you're going to need stronger monsters & more rare traits to be able to fill those requirements. Sure it makes it so you have less work to do, but from my personal opinion, the raise in stats between sales becomes less & less effective as you continue to sell monsters. So yes, the restock makes it insanely easy early in the game, but after a number of sales, the stat raise between sales doesn't quite hold up, meaning you still end up having to do a TON of work later in the game. The only thing the restock really helps with is giving the user new choices when requirements to sell a monster have changed. I personally would like to see an auto-restock when you purchase a new upgrade for the ranch, also.

So what you're seeing as a bug I only see as common sense. The raise in stats could probably be removed as logic would have it they are still young monsters, but we still are going to need the new traits to be showing on new monsters as you can't birth a monster with a trait that wasn't part of one of the parents.

[Ironvein]

I would have to disagree with you there. Personally I think the restock on sale of a monster makes sense given you're going to need stronger monsters & more rare traits to be able to fill those requirements. Sure it makes it so you have less work to do, but from my personal opinion, the raise in stats between sales becomes less & less effective as you continue to sell monsters. So yes, the restock makes it insanely easy early in the game, but after a number of sales, the stat raise between sales doesn't quite hold up, meaning you still end up having to do a TON of work later in the game. The only thing the restock really helps with is giving the user new choices when requirements to sell a monster have changed. I personally would like to see an auto-restock when you purchase a new upgrade for the ranch, also.

Going to have to disagree with you there. The way I breed them, I tend to be a couple hundred stat points ahead of curve by the third month. I think that's mostly because I only sell enough to afford the payment and then prep a monster for each client til the month ends. That gives me a headstart on the next payment and keeps client request difficulty low.

So what you're seeing as a bug I only see as common sense. The raise in stats could probably be removed as logic would have it they are still young monsters, but we still are going to need the new traits to be showing on new monsters as you can't birth a monster with a trait that wasn't part of one of the parents.

Guess you misunderstood the 'bug' I was talking about. I bought a monster and then the entire stock doubled (copies off the original in stock) and added a new monster. THAT is a bug. I think it triggered when I went from the store screen, opened the client screen and sold a monster, and the bought a new monster.

As for the traits, of course the new traits need to show up in the store, but a single 'new' monster with many traits right out of the gate is ridiculous. It's similar to when the clients used to work with too many trait requirements too earlier in the game. It's a pace issue.

And you've forgotten Mutagenic so there's that possibility as well. The point of the game is to breed monsters to make money, but if all you have to do all the time is just buy one from the store a train it a little, you are not really breeding anything. Thinking in the game world sense, if the client can just get the monster they want from the store; why do they need us at all?

[Ironvein]

(snip)
This is a perfect example of raw, unhelpful data.
(snip)
If you answered no to any of these, you haven't 'proven' anything. Try again.

Don't you think you're being a little overly hostile there? Personally, I hadn't been paying attention to this thread for a while, and seeing this bug discussion had wanted to join in....only to not find any useful information pointing towards replicating the bug, other than Flora's post (high stat monster with negative modifiers being more likely to cause it). I had played it a bit recently, and had found No Downsides to be working as expected for the the whole time, so I was clueless as to where to start trying to test.

On the subject of the bug, I would have rather sent it to HartistaPipebomb for his judgment on it since I had to decompile/check the script to see what the cause was...but I can't PM, because I'm a newly registered user. My apologies to him if he doesn't approve.

If the stat/negative breeding modifier are high/strong enough on one monster, and the stat on the other monster is low enough, it just sets the stat to 0 on the other monster, without checking for things like Gentle or No Downsides. When it does this, it also doesn't lower the growth mod.

Hostile? Maybe, but since the very next post after I gave an example of organized data collection was a bunch disorganized thoughts and random speculation; it was justified. Flora's theory is unlikely to be stats themselves as they are not the deciding factors on whether a breed causes the stat to go up or down, the breed modifiers are. What's happening is there is some unique factor it the relationship between individual monsters that causes a skip in the 'immunity check.'

The biggest problem with the 'immunity bug' is that we don't know HOW to replicate it, but you will know it when you see it. If it does happen to a pair of monsters, it will always happen to that pair of monsters. It is a rare unique event. Simply put, it'll probably be easier to patch rather than remove since there are not real indicators on the trigger.

[Zeus Kabob]

Hostile? Maybe, but since the very next post after I gave an example of organized data collection was a bunch disorganized thoughts and random speculation; it was justified.

No matter whether you're a coding and data management professional, this forum isn't a place where we want hostility. I don't think you were out of line, but I want you to know that there's no justification for being hostile or insulting people. Most of us are amateur coders or animators, and we are here to help each other out.

Edit: Sounds a bit more aggressive than I intended. You seem like you have the best intentions in mind, but you should still be friendly to everyone here.

[WonderGamer]

And you've forgotten Mutagenic so there's that possibility as well. The point of the game is to breed monsters to make money, but if all you have to do all the time is just buy one from the store a train it a little, you are not really breeding anything. Thinking in the game world sense, if the client can just get the monster they want from the store; why do they need us at all?

Not exactly forgotten, just haven't experienced it yet. I actually haven't had much time to get into the game yet. Only gotten slightly into the second month. But I can usually get around 5 sales in the first month, to the point that you can't purchase monsters with high enough max stats anymore; you have to start birthing monsters to get them that high around that point.

Guess you misunderstood the 'bug' I was talking about. I bought a monster and then the entire stock doubled (copies off the original in stock) and added a new monster. THAT is a bug. I think it triggered when I went from the store screen, opened the client screen and sold a monster, and the bought a new monster.

Yes, I acknowledged that as being a bug when you mentioned it. I guess I was more concerned about thinking that you were seeing the auto-restock itself as a bug & disregarded the important part of the post.

[Ironvein]

Yes, I acknowledged that as being a bug when you mentioned it. I guess I was more concerned about thinking that you were seeing the auto-restock itself as a bug & disregarded the important part of the post.

Auto-restock isn't a bug. It's more like a cheat, but it's useful now because we are still in the testing phase. It really should not be in the final version because it breaks the realism (store cannot simply restock entire inventory instantaneously). Does not mean that it can't be unlockable (cheat code or some such).

[WonderGamer]

Auto-restock isn't a bug. It's more like a cheat, but it's useful now because we are still in the testing phase. It really should not be in the final version because it breaks the realism (store cannot simply restock entire inventory instantaneously). Does not mean that it can't be unlockable (cheat code or some such).

Okay, so not a bug, but I still don't see the logic in not restocking after a sale to give new possibilities for the new requirements. In case you haven't noticed, monsters do change from day to day (some disappear while others may be added) if you don't sell a monster or manually restock; I sometimes wait for a monster to become available to raise a stat I need to sell a monster while I'm raising others to avoid the restock fee & will check back day to day at the beginning of the day until one either becomes available or until it's the only stat(s) I have left to raise on that monster to sell it, leaving restock as a last resort.

And I have a suggestion for you when you're reporting these bugs: Provide screenshots. I know from experience that this comes in pretty handy in pointing out bugs when they happen. It is used on a day to day basis in my job. If you're are unsure how to do this, I will explain.

[Ironvein]

I appreciate the suggestion, but the recent bugs don't show the error well in a single screenshot so it's easier just to explain them.

I'm aware of the shop works and it's generally fine functionally. My comments on the logic is more of a conception thing; if this world was 'real', why would clients come to 'us' when they can find the monster they want faster/easier through the store (especially with the restock option)? My only real gripe with is that monsters in the store are showing up with more than a single trait too quickly; game balance is not being considered. It was a problem when the clients were doing that as it made it too hard (it used to be easier to sell consumables to make money/payments because the client requirements would want 3+ traits after the first sell). The same issue is in the store, but now its making it too easy to collect traits (using Human Intellect even more so).

[WonderGamer]

why would clients come to 'us' when they can find the monster they want faster/easier through the store (especially with the restock option)?

Maybe because they can't find a monster that meets their requirements? It's the same situation when I'm looking for a monster that at least has max stats, species & trait requirements for the purchase. Later in the game, you can't just simply buy a monster with high enough max stats, you have to start birthing monsters with higher stats to meet that requirement as the stores really are only for breeding purposes later in the game. This is where the client has to rely on you to get the monster to where they are willing to purchase it.

[WonderGamer]

@Ironvein,
Okay. So I just duplicated the steps you gave to make this bug happen, it didn't happen on my side. I'm currently running the game in IE version 10.0.9200.16660 with flash version 11.8.800.94.