Advice/Help - Request.

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Advice/Help - Request.

Postby Nyshiv » Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:50 pm

Long time, no see everyone. I'm back and I have brought with me... ambition, as well as the lack of knowledge on where else to post this. ( So let's hope it gets moved if the case calls for it. )

Well, last time around I was all naive and silly, like, "hey, I want to /write/ for a game that's being made." This time around I've decided, "I simply want to make my own game."

I think the most important question I have to ask before I jump into anything is: is it possible to start creating a game /without any funding/?

If the answer to that question was ever-so-conveniently a "yes", then I have a few more to follow.

1. Non-flash resources, coding and programming; are they accessible or do I have to sift through a thousand different trojan plagued downloads to eventually reach the final destination?
2. Windows 8 support: do they have this sort of support or is running Windows 8 the worst thing you can do as a programer?
3. Is there any database of substantial coding knowledge that could potentially help in the creation of an entirely new script designed to aid in the facilitation of game creating?
4. How do YOU guys do it? :)

If anyone can answer these questions, or provide their own views and opinions on certain matters, or just anything really regarding the creation of non-flash games, I'd be really greatly appreciative.
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Re: Advice/Help - Request.

Postby BlueLight » Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:32 am

Nyshiv Wrote:1. Non-flash resources, coding and programming; are they accessible or do I have to sift through a thousand different trojan plagued downloads to eventually reach the final destination?
2. Windows 8 support: do they have this sort of support or is running Windows 8 the worst thing you can do as a programer?
3. Is there any database of substantial coding knowledge that could potentially help in the creation of an entirely new script designed to aid in the facilitation of game creating?
4. How do YOU guys do it? :)


1 not exactly sure what you mean but if you're looking for compilers or programming tools then in general than i'd safe it safe. Notepad++ is a must for any programmer and if your doing a C based language than Eclipse is great, but i've only tried it with java. These sites are virus free and you're more likely to get bloat ware from from Skype than these programming applications. Programmers tend to support other programer in the open source community where profit isn't a factor.

2 If you can support it, why wouldn't you? So windows 8 is built on top of windows 7. The theory is that anything 7 can run, 8 can do better. I know a small few programs that don't run on windows 8 unlike their earlier counter parts. Supporting windows 8 also gives you an excuse to support touch screen. While everything from XP up has supported it, windows 8 is the one that has pushed it. I'd say you can expect maybe 75% of W8 pc to have a touch screen but that's a random number i grabbed out of a hat.

3 Just type into google "Java try catch example" or check out a site like stackoverflow.com/ They wont write code for you but they can solve a problem you're having.

4 a lot of hard work and dedication.
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Re: Advice/Help - Request.

Postby Nyshiv » Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:37 am

Thanks for the prompt reply, BlueLight.

The question I have remaining, and to be MUCH more specific, is "are there any reliable resources to LEARN how to code from /scratch/."

I know bits and pieces of HTML5, but that is mostly geared more toward web page design and not game coding, which I think CSS is infinitely more helpful with, isn't it? Either way, I'll check out the things you mentioned so far, but if you could get back to me on the possibility of a site and/or community that focuses on teaching/learning programming languages, then that'd be great, thanks.
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Re: Advice/Help - Request.

Postby BlueLight » Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:42 am

Nyshiv Wrote:Thanks for the prompt reply, BlueLight.

The question I have remaining, and to be MUCH more specific, is "are there any reliable resources to LEARN how to code from /scratch/."

I know bits and pieces of HTML5, but that is mostly geared more toward web page design and not game coding, which I think CSS is infinitely more helpful with, isn't it? Either way, I'll check out the things you mentioned so far, but if you could get back to me on the possibility of a site and/or community that focuses on teaching/learning programming languages, then that'd be great, thanks.


Get a good programming book on amazon. They can will likely will range upwards of $100+ new but a used copy is just fine.
You can normally find series of tutorials on a language with youtube.

HTML5 is a language which allows so much to be done in the browser.
CSS is literally something to make your webpages pretty. I have never heard anyone says "oh ya i'm going to learn CSS to make my game".
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Re: Advice/Help - Request.

Postby Nyshiv » Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:50 am

BlueLight Wrote:
Nyshiv Wrote:Thanks for the prompt reply, BlueLight.

The question I have remaining, and to be MUCH more specific, is "are there any reliable resources to LEARN how to code from /scratch/."

I know bits and pieces of HTML5, but that is mostly geared more toward web page design and not game coding, which I think CSS is infinitely more helpful with, isn't it? Either way, I'll check out the things you mentioned so far, but if you could get back to me on the possibility of a site and/or community that focuses on teaching/learning programming languages, then that'd be great, thanks.


Get a good programming book on amazon. They can will likely will range upwards of $100+ new but a used copy is just fine.
You can normally find series of tutorials on a language with youtube.

HTML5 is a language which allows so much to be done in the browser.
CSS is literally something to make your webpages pretty. I have never heard anyone says "oh ya i'm going to learn CSS to make my game".


Ahh, haha, see you caught me right there. This is the extent of my knowledge on coding - it's very little. So now I'm curious, instead of Amazon, would a regular old bookstore be carrying books on programming languages? Is it a regular circulation, or do they exist solely online for those who want them, to be sent out based on a user-sell-in or manufacturer-out basis?
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Re: Advice/Help - Request.

Postby BlueLight » Sat Aug 02, 2014 3:11 am

Any big book store chain should have programming books.
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Re: Advice/Help - Request.

Postby Nyshiv » Sat Aug 02, 2014 3:35 am

BlueLight Wrote:Any big book store chain should have programming books.


Alright, thanks. :)
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Re: Advice/Help - Request.

Postby Zeus Kabob » Sat Aug 02, 2014 4:09 am

[MOD EDIT] Moved this to Tutorials

Talk to inkhryptedQuery. He's an experienced Canvas (HTML5 + Javascript) programmer, and he'd likely have advice for how to introduce yourself to Canvas. Even better, he might help you personally, or introduce you to the tools personally.

I hope you find what you're looking for! :)
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Re: Advice/Help - Request.

Postby Nyshiv » Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:33 am

Zeus Kabob Wrote:[MOD EDIT] Moved this to Tutorials

Talk to inkhryptedQuery. He's an experienced Canvas (HTML5 + Javascript) programmer, and he'd likely have advice for how to introduce yourself to Canvas. Even better, he might help you personally, or introduce you to the tools personally.

I hope you find what you're looking for! :)


Thank you very much, Zeus. I'll certainly do that. I appreciate your work and your help!
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Re: Advice/Help - Request.

Postby Anonymouse » Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:48 am

First you have to decide what language/system you want to use for your game.

Flash is often used for this sort of thing because it is simple to learn in comparison, and because implementing graphics and art is easy. Flash Pro (which costs money) has it's own art interface for vector art. You can also make Flash games from a pure coding perspective using FlashDevelop (which is free). Flash also has the advantage of being able to play games from the browser easily.

Java is more complex, but can still play it from browsers (not as easily as Flash games though).

Unity is a good game engine, there is a free version of it, it makes creating games much easier and is easier to learn, supports 2D and 3D well and can be played in browsers.
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Re: Advice/Help - Request.

Postby BlueLight » Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:09 pm

I can help you Java, and unity.
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Re: Advice/Help - Request.

Postby inkhryptedQuery » Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:39 pm

Hey. So I don't yet have enough messages posted to private message.

Personally speaking, I'm using the HTML DOM to create a game engine. However, I have somewhat dedicated time to it, and it's not something I'd tell someone new to try.

Mostly people, interested in HTML5 gaming are doing it in the canvas. Flash is dying. Mobile isn't supporting it. Apple is trying to kill it. Everything is moving to Canvas or other means. I have no experience with Unity, but Unity IMO is a constantly evolving project. If it wasn't constantly being worked on, and being innovated I'd say that it'd just be the stepping stone between Flash and HTML5.

With Unity's build one for all platform, and the interesting things they're cooking up. It's difficult to determine if Unity is going to make it. Their team is kickass, but they have two main problems to deal with. One, is that Unity requires an installation. They've done a lot to make that installation seamless, but one more layer between the user and game .. The second is HTML5.

===

The IDEA is that HTML5 is not going away at all. If you can create games with HTML5 (it's possible, they're just trying to figure it out), then HTML5 can do anything.

We're not going to use Unity to make websites. We tried that with flash and it was a disaster.

So developers have to choose. Learn HTML5 and do -anything- including mobile, console and any OS with a browser
Or learn Unity, to do one thing easier and arguably better.

Being however, that Unity's team is SWEEEET, I think if there's any chance they'll find a way to be relevant, then their team will succeed.
Also, as for right now in 2014. I think they're king, in terms of advantages.

Canvas isn't as optimized yet. Flash is being realized for being a resource hungry monster. People are still trying to work out this multiplayer aspect. All of these things Unity already has tools for.

This article says everything I just said with more detail and is just overall better. I don't even know why I bothered to write anything.

===

That said, either of which is a safe choice. The best choice, is what you feel most comfortable in.

Also. Flash still has a good 5 years of life in it. And even then, it's not like the flash plugin is going away. Arguably flash applications will still be made for dozens of years, but there won't be many jobs left for it. Flash might even become a stain on one's resume at the bleeding edge front.

===

As soon as I get private messaging, I can help tutor anyone .. I actually teach an HTML/JS/CSS course here on the east coast for free .. Because it's nice to do and I get bored with coding but want to do things that force me to use my skills from memorization.

That being said ..

Congratulations on trying to make your own game. Concentrate on finishing. Like LOK projects, the rest of the world has trouble just finishing their games. I've watched countless indie games attempt and fail. The only failure in delivering a game is not delivering. I talked to a few game companies back when I was still looking for employment and they all said the same thing "Have you finished a game"

The most fun in any project is starting. Finishing takes lots of not sleeping and facing algorithms/drawings/managing things you don't want to do.

As for starting capital .. Are you fed? Are you sheltered? Do you have access to a machine? Then no.
The only capital you need is that. Otherwise, the rest is to purchase your assets(music, art, code, anything you can't bring to the table yourself)

All you need to code is free. Except flash.
The first hurtle for a project I have seen im[H]o is that the coder can't art. The artist can't code.
Unless you're the magical "both", and you're good at "both"
Then.. Fuck you.

Even if you are the magical bi-talented unicorn. You still have limited time + motivation. Also, switching design + code gears costs stamina.

Unless you're the magical "both" with amazing handling.
Then.. Fuck you.

Windows 8 shouldn't be your problem. Completely disregard that.

Database of coding knowledge is stackoverflow, like bluelight said. Everyone uses it. It will save you in 99% of all your problems.

However, as a guide or tutorial. There are other things like Codecademy and W3Schools.
But I should be able to help you out if you go the HTML5 || canvas route.
Maybe Bluelight will teach or already teaches Unity. And we've got a full browser based gamedev school .. : D

===

How would I do it?

Me, I haven't gotten into game development until recently. That being said I've created a few dinky little games. So the experience I'll be drawing upon will purely be about how I approach projects. This is where a project manager comes in handy. Even if it may sound stupid that you'd be giving credit to a person that essentially tells you "You have to do this". They're important in keeping the project together.

This person essentially is the advocate for anyone whose not in the room.
They hold meetings, they talk to artists, they talk to coders, they keep everyone on deadlines and they make some pretty tough decisions.

If you are your own project manager, you'll need a will of steel to sometimes tell yourself "This has to get done, or it may not get done at all"

It sounds trivial, but it's really important when one wants to slack.

But creating deadlines is very important.

As for art .. I do concept designs, but nothing compared to the pros .. Best not learn that from me.

But code .. I normally start with a high level architecture. The big picture of where things will go. Do it on a coffee napkin.

Game starts here ..
Main loop does
-- bippity
-- boppity
-- boo
Collision handler comes under these conditions
saving gets handled locally
-- then hits a server
-- then is saved in a db

Like this ..

I would do this, but I would not tell a junior developer to do this. However it's very good to keep in mind the type of thinking you will want to do in the future.

When you code, you often find yourself in a place where you've "Coded yourself into a corner". You've built a structure that just can't be scaled, and making any changes to the code requires a dozen changes in other places. Slowing down the progress of the project down to motivation wrecking crawl.

The problem is that high level architecture is rarely understood by junior developers because they haven't run into problems that would be caused by it.
Not because they can't appreciate it, but because it's difficult for a junior developer to create a large enough program in which they code themselves into a corner.

Which is great. If you don't need it, don't use it.

Then after architecting, I will get into a prototyping phase which is just straight coding. No real thinking. Just make features as fast as possible.

Every now and then I'll update the project manager, or talk to the designer about a new feature. This is good because this will get them both excited, and as a team, you want to motivate each other. Losing motivation is the only way you can drop the project. So during your meetings, you show each other what you each accomplished. Prototyping is very cool for your PM and Designer to see, it'll give ammo for the PM if he's talking to clients or he's advertising.

Since a PM's job is sort of being a personality front, the more content you give him/her, the less they have to go to meetings on their smile and charm alone.

The designer, needs to see their work come to life. The more life you give their art, the more art they want to see alive.

So, as a coder on a team. Prototyping is great

.. It's also a trap.

Prototyping is taking shortcuts to get the feature out as fast as possible. In this, I'd say it was like. A walking animation. Maybe the character bumps into walls and bounces off of them. Maybe you've accidentally come upon a neat little glitch that ends up being a cool gravity mechanic for the game.

But prototyping is taking shortcuts, and will lead to inefficient and un-maintainable code.
As you get better, you will prototype things in more efficient and maintainable ways.

But ultimately, you're going to have to stop and take your code apart and put it in such a way that it is efficient and readable.
But that's ok. Designers and PMs too have their downtimes.

Designers also prototype with their sketches and eventually have to clean up their work.
The point is when this downtime comes for me. I try to do it fast enough to get to my next set of features.

That's a lot of writing, I'll try to make more posts so that I can PM, but maybe you have AIM MSN Y!M SKYPE and we can talk more
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Re: Advice/Help - Request.

Postby BlueLight » Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:46 pm

Skype BlueLightProgrammer
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Re: Advice/Help - Request.

Postby Matpneumatos » Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:25 pm

Nyshiv Wrote:I think the most important question I have to ask before I jump into anything is: is it possible to start creating a game /without any funding/?


I just want to say, that depending on the method you choose to create a game you'll need to have some money or maybe not, there are lots of free and powerful tools to create games, i make games using a game engine named Unity, i create 3D models using blender, and textures can be created and modified with Gimp, all of them free tools, so you can create a game without spending money, i myself create most of my assets, but there are also lots of free resouces to use on your game, but like i said, it depends on the method you choose to create your game, and if you can cover all areas of your game, like Programing, art and writing by yorself, or if you need to hire someone to make something for you.
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Re: Advice/Help - Request.

Postby BlueLight » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:42 pm

So to add on to the topic of funding. Ask yourself this. In the zoomed out sense, if i had unlimited funds, where would that go. The answers would likely be Manpower, Software, and hardware likely in that order.
Since you're making this in your free time, you wont be getting paids, and unless you get outside help for art,sound or code, no one else is getting paid.
Since most languages are free to use, you wont likely wont have software cost there. You might need to buy software for resource making but alot of stuff you can find free solutions. For instances blender is a free program used to make models.
I assume you have a computer so again no cost.
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Re: Advice/Help - Request.

Postby Nyshiv » Mon Aug 04, 2014 1:00 am

Alright, wow, that was a lot of reading - especially when you have a splitting headache - but I got through it all. Well, I have no idea what to say at the moment, but I'll drop my Skype for anyone interested in providing advice/helping learn how to get this stuff organized and on its way.

Skype name: Verahlt
Location is set as Tokyo, Japan and the name you'll see is こうふくかん (koufuku kan). ( Which, for the sake of the mods, that roughly translates to "Euphoria" or something along those lines. )
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Re: Advice/Help - Request.

Postby Enkidu » Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:39 am

Nyshiv Wrote:1. Non-flash resources, coding and programming; are they accessible or do I have to sift through a thousand different trojan plagued downloads to eventually reach the final destination?


This is what github is for.

Nyshiv Wrote:2. Windows 8 support: do they have this sort of support or is running Windows 8 the worst thing you can do as a programer?


Flash, javascript, and anything else that renders inside a web browser is not platform specific. There are some bugs that you need to work around with Internet Explorer (mostly css related), however nothing is going to not work just because you are on windows unless you are programming a desktop application. Your viewer needs the flash player to view flash, or to view javascript they need any browser with the scripts option not set to off. Seeing as though almost every major website is broken if you have javascript off, it is very uncommon that anyone does the majority of the time.

Nyshiv Wrote:3. Is there any database of substantial coding knowledge that could potentially help in the creation of an entirely new script designed to aid in the facilitation of game creating?


You don't need an entirely new script. You need an existing library or framework designed to build games as a starting point, or roll your own. You can build a game in literally any language you want, though most of the ones that you are going to want to work with (due to ease and availability of existing resources) are as follows:

Web games: Flash or javascript( For the former, lurk Newgrounds and Flashkit for help and resources. for the latter, look into the [link=]http://cocos2d-x.org/[/link] library for a good starting point. )

Mobile games: Javascript (everything), Swift(iOS), Java(android), Cocoa(any mac platform), and Objective-C(iOS and OSX). There are also flash mobile game programming resources, however these typically are recompiled into javascript, and are usually buggier and don't work as well as if you had just written it in javascript to begin with (Technical understanding: Actionscript and javascript are both implementations of EMCA script, so the compiler will translate the actionscript into raw EMCA, then render that back into javascript, often with unexpected results because both languages have their own little kinks that don't exist in the other one).

Desktop and console games: C++ and C# mostly. These have a high learning curve, you shouldn't start with them until you already have a grasp of how to work with physics, collisions, hit boxes, event handlers, and a ton of other things that are universal to game programming in any language. These languages have a very high syntax learning overhead. In general, c# is easier and faster to write, C++ is more powerful and more flexible. You can tinker with the Unreal engine, which is open source, but honestly if you are going to go this route your best bet is probably to go to college for computer science or game development to get a good jump start on them and make sure you aren't going in the wrong direction. You would probably need to be pretty dedicated to go that way, although on the other hand there are plenty of online free resources to learn them too if you want to have a go at it yourself, but expect a lot of brain pain in that case.

Nyshiv Wrote:4. How do YOU guys do it? :)


You don't need startup money, you need a lot of free time and dedication, and to be humble enough to never assume you already know the best answer. You also will probably want a lot of coffee and to enjoy not having much of a social life away from your keyboard for a good solid 6 months to a year at least to get a really solid grasp in a timely manner. Also a lot of hours on stackoverflow, code academy, khanacademy (for the mathy stuff), mozilla developer network, newgrounds, particularly the programmers forum (for flash stuff), and about a billion other places you will figure out as you go (avoid w3schools, they suck and are often inaccurate).

Nyshiv Wrote: I think CSS is infinitely more helpful with, isn't it?


Css is for making pages look pretty and lay out the right way. It's not programming. You want to know it so you can make things actually look the way they are supposed to, but it doesn't do any logic stuff for you.
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Re: Advice/Help - Request.

Postby Terrantor!!! » Thu Aug 14, 2014 12:21 am

You know. I ALWAYS recommend this to beginners. GameMaker: Studio is a great beginning resource. It exports to HTML5 rendering it useful virtually anywhere. It's got a built-in library manager, compiler, and a simple, efficient language to boot. My only beeves is it has extremely limited 3d support (which I can assume you're interested in) and it's partial to platformer creation. Other than that, it's reference manual is very easy to understand and has a lot of great examples that teach you the basics of coding (if and switch conditionals and for/while loops). it was my first exposure to programming and I swear by it as a starting resource. Another cool thing is it has a drag 'n' drop interface for common functions.
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Re: Advice/Help - Request.

Postby BlueLight » Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:31 am

I think he decided to give up on programming because he found programmers rude? I forget what his last chat message was exactly and it wasn't clear if it was here or somewhere else he was pointing to.
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Re: Advice/Help - Request.

Postby Terrantor!!! » Thu Aug 14, 2014 4:41 am

BlueLight Wrote:I think he decided to give up on programming because he found programmers rude? I forget what his last chat message was exactly and it wasn't clear if it was here or somewhere else he was pointing to.


I skimmed through the first few posts, lol. But he's right, coders are cranky for a reason. 90% of the job is annoying as hell debugging and one does not simply teach one how to script. It's like teaching a new language. So we understandably get fed up.
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