Why do ___ on your Patreon?!

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Why do ___ on your Patreon?!

Postby cheddaredgrizzly » Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:24 pm

Before I start this, please note I have nothing against the premise of Patreon. I believe it's great that people can be supported for their craft through their fans chipping in a little bit, and it's revolutionized independent artists work for this century. With that being said however, why the F*** do some artists do some stupid ass stuff on their Patreon page! Let's face it. We've seen it before, and we are sick of it. Hopefully if you read this, maybe you can structure your Patreon page to be real friendly to potential patrons.

1. A Huge Gap between Patreon vs. Public Release: I get it, reward the people who pay you before everyone else, that makes sense, what doesn't make sense is why there is like a Month gap before the public version gets released. A month is a long time in the world of the Internet and people can actually lose interest in your game (though it doesn't have to be a game) if it takes too long before the next public release. If you want a delay, I'd say do 2 week gap MAX, though you will be loved if you do a week. Plus it deters pirates, who will make your game public anyway.

2. _# versions back: I've only seen this case happen once, but there's probably another example out there. It's an ok business model to release the last Patreon release as the public release when the next Patreon release is published. I feel perfectly ok with playing Alpha 0.19 while the patron plays 0.20. What pisses people off is when the it's more than one version difference. Why do I want to play 0.18, when the patrons already have version 0.20? it makes the public feel like that their not worth a crap, and it makes it confusing to figure out what has changed between versions, since they have to go back 2 months in posts to see the differences.

3. too many patron exclusive posts: People can't get behind a project unless they have information, but Patreon isn't a newspaper, I'm not paying your Patreon to simply get information and news, I'm paying for a game release. At the same token, possible patrons won't pay anything if they can't even see posts that are just simply news updates. Make that Shit public. If you must have a ratio, maybe have 1/3 of your posts be Patreon exclusive, enough posts to strike interests to see what's behind the paywall. (*Edit No longer applicable because of changed Patreon content policy)

That's all I can think of, but what Patreon horrors have you come across, and how would you structure your theoretical Patreon differently? Or maybe you are a Patreon right now, what are you thinking about when it comes to structuring your Patreon?
Last edited by cheddaredgrizzly on Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why do ___ on your Patreon?!

Postby Duoiz » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:33 am

I don't have a patreon myself, but I am with you in what you are saying, except for one point: The time between releases.
One must remember that in this one month of time, the dev needs to make new content, test it, and deliver it. In some cases even get in touch with artist and other partys to sync up the work.
And from what I have seen here on the forum, few people can live of their patreon, meaning they have to balance work, or in some cases even school.
They might not be able to give the project more then 2-3 hours at most a day, maybe not even 7 hours a week.
Meaning that the releases would be minimal in content. Force feeding releases like: Version 0.XX Fixed 1 bug introdused 4 others, added 1 image, but not yet available, would make for terrible patch notes.

But I would also like to get more releases, since without them, I would be unsure if the project is still moving on.
This however could be avoided, by what you adressin point 3: Hidden msges.
If a project leader writes 2-4 times a month, stating what they are doing that the project isn't dead, maybe posting an image or two from
the latest version, even if said image is of a wall of code, the wait wouldn't be so long, and you would know that the project is moving on...

Well that is what I think.

As for horrors do I even need to mention Breeding Season and Simbro? It is examples like that, that keeps me from being a paying patreon...

For as how I would combat this if I was a Patreon artist myself, I would give a clear schedual. Not just release every X weeks or something like that, but I would have a rought guide out of the whole project.
I feel like a lot of people getting a patreon does so when starting a project that they havn't planned out. Putting in things as they go along.
Some handle this better then others, but alot of people fail this.
If we take a game as an example, give a clear list at day one what is planned. And if things deviate from the plan, tell the people, not only the people paying you, but everyone following you.
Simbro feels like a clear example of a project that wasn't planned out enough. It was like "Brothel sim... Ok, battles, ok... hey lets throw this in here, and people like events right? lets do some of those, maybe?"
They added things like a X-mas scene, before the core of the game was even made. This could have been avoided with clear planning.

Now then, I am off... hope my 2 cents contributed...
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Re: Why do ___ on your Patreon?!

Postby FlynnFlann » Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:30 pm

"1. A Huge Gap Between Patreon and Public Releases"

Having done work for a couple of Patreon projects with this type of set-up- I don't really get your gripe.
The projects that I see do this sometimes go even longer than a month between public releases.
The purpose behind this is that the public releases are usually really content rich, stable, releases that are used to let people know what's in the game and to provide a sizeable update to long-time lurkers.
Sure, the public won't get to play the build every week or two weeks, but they're also not really supposed to- people who want to check the game regularly can become Patrons.

The public can check up on it after leaving it and stumbling back on it later, such as I usually do with projects that I'm interested in but not supporting.
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Re: Why do ___ on your Patreon?!

Postby hentaiwriter » Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:40 pm

cheddaredgrizzly Wrote:3. too many patron exclusive posts: People can't get behind a project unless they have information, but Patreon isn't a newspaper, I'm not paying your Patreon to simply get information and news, I'm paying for a game release. At the same token, possible patrons won't pay anything if they can't even see posts that are just simply news updates. Make that Shit public. If you must have a ratio, maybe have 1/3 of your posts be Patreon exclusive, enough posts to strike interests to see what's behind the paywall.


Patreon makes you keep all posts on a NSFW Patreon behind Patreon-Only settings. This is an actual rule, and any Patreons not abiding to this can be, and have been hit.
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Re: Why do ___ on your Patreon?!

Postby Lucky777 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:10 am

Isn't it all specifically NSFW posts, such that news on upcoming builds and shit like that can be seen by everybody?
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Re: Why do ___ on your Patreon?!

Postby Golrim » Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:33 pm

I think the only problem anyone should have with Patreon is consistency. If a development team chooses to update their game to the public every 2 months, 6 months, even a year or never again it's perfectly fine in my book as long as they have this establish it to their audience at a reasonable time
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Re: Why do ___ on your Patreon?!

Postby Nikag » Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:18 pm

I can comment on this from a creator side (I have a weird feeling that all this points can be applied to my project perfectly)

1. A Huge Gap between Patreon vs. Public Release: 2 months gap is not huge at all. More over usually creator do not expect everyone play every version of his/her game. On my project this gap is done in order to make supporters feel they get something except just a 'thank you' from my side. Do they worth it? I think they do, I love my patrons. I have roughly 2500 monthly patrons vs approximately 500 000 people playing every public game release. I'm not saying every of those 500 000 could throw 1$, but saying something nice about the game are welcome too - instead what I can often read on pirate torrents is "this shitty developer cannot produce more content into the game! I hate him being so slow / greedy / stupid / lazy". Wow, that's really expiring. Do you think I will put a top priority to satisfy these players at the costs of satisfaction of my patrons?

2. _# versions back: I had 1 and 2 versions back and I don't see any issue here. I don't think people should feel like crap when you send them regular free updates of the product production of which actually costs a lot. If adobe were allowing to use Photoshop older versions for free - I would not say them 'Hey, you treat me like crap! Give me the latest version you have!'. I mean - what makes you feel all that different when you speak about game and not, let's say, a movie or an application?

3. too many patron exclusive posts: 2 reason for this.
1. As hentaiwriter stated - Patreon force you to hide most of the content or get banned.
2. Creators usually have multiple tiers for their supporters - and creator need to split content is the way to (try) fill different tiers with some cool limited content for them. Is it fair? I don't know and I was on the both sides. When I pay for something - I wish this to be a little exclusive. When I get something free - I wish it had a better quality, but I'm usually okay with what I get.

So back to the initial question.
cheddaredgrizzly Wrote:why the F*** do some artists do some stupid ass stuff on their Patreon page! Let's face it. We've seen it before, and we are sick of it. Hopefully if you read this, maybe you can structure your Patreon page to be real friendly to potential patrons.

I think us, stupid artists, do stupid stuff on their Patreon page in order to 1) do not break Patreon rules (I have to share non-patron NSFW content via Tumblr and Twitter for example); 2) attract more patrons. Number of patrons directly influence quality of the project (in most cases) -> people, who like your game, but don't want to support you, still can enjoy increased quality in 1-2 months.
For example when I've got my first 1000$ support I've immediately started looking for a hired artist for my project (and yes, I was paying her most of my monthly patreon income).
Hired artist made things a lot better and faster at that time FOR EVERYONE who play the game, not just patrons.

So, from a creator point of view, I think you are overexerting the problem.
From a supporter's point of view - when I see someone's work and decide that "I want to support this guy" I just google his patreon page and pledge a support. When I see some extra sketches / small exclusive materials posted for patron's only - I am pleased, because I understand that this is a way he give his thanks to me for my support of his work.
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Re: Why do ___ on your Patreon?!

Postby Nikag » Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:22 pm

Duoiz Wrote:As for horrors do I even need to mention Breeding Season and Simbro? It is examples like that, that keeps me from being a paying patreon...


I'm curious what horrors did you mention regarding Simbro?
Fun thing that Breeding Season would probably being banned according to update Patreon policies nowadays...
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Re: Why do ___ on your Patreon?!

Postby Duoiz » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:09 pm

Not being online for god knows howlong, but since I was browinsing today and saw the question adressed to me I feel like I have to respond.

"The horrors" I am thinking of is not only the way Breeding Season went, and since we all know what happened there, I will adress Simbro since you asked.

"The horrors" (sorry for re-using the words like a broken record) is the fact that X number of people gave them money, and it became alot of money, fast.
The project was little more then a "Check out this system we made, we are going to do lots with it!" when it first came out, but I do belive the money scared them.

Instead of polishing what they had, adding an outfit or 2, new hair or something simple like that, they felt that they needed to do so much more.
(not on the team mind you, it was just the feeling I got.)
And all of a sudden they intrudoced events, with custom dialoge, looks, every patch becomming more broken and less maintained.

Instead of taking time to add for instance a new room type and polishing that, things were given that didn't really contribute to the game, but instead appealed to the gaping masses.
If they had a solid framework to work with, adding things like a new hair/color/clothes should be more or less artist draws, change 1-2 variables, done. Instead it felt like
they had missed doing this, felt a need to keep the money flowing, and made halloween event, x-mas event, new years event, saint pat... okey.. going of tangent... but
you see my point by now I hope.
The last version I tried of the game crashed after 3 minutes of gameplay, and at that point I gave up. At this point it also felt like the devs themselves came to relize what they had done, what kind of monster they had created, atleast some of them. Causing the patreon and the forum posts to go dark. (as in no more of them.)
But it isn't dead yet, just like most monsters.
Peoples donations kept comming in, and to my knowledge some money still is, but the project can be seen as dead.
I find it sad, but the "Horror" I am talking about is the fact that the group gets money, lots and lots of it, and there are alot of things happening off screen, behind covers, or what ever you want to call it. Some patreons think "It is just a minor hickup." but the screaming few that you have to listen to, are the ones going "GIVE UPDATE NOWZ!!" spoon feeding them things that will mess up your code, untill it is a an unsavalged mess.

If the code is writen in a way that you can't come back 3 months later, after writing, for instance, a new room type, or a new type of encounter, in most likleyhood you didn't spend enough time polishing the code in the first place.
I feel like this might be what happened to Simbro, and I fear alot of devs of games of an adult nature, especialy the ones from small indie teams of 2-3 devs, risk falling
for the same trap.
The western world have a large audience for adult games, but the people that want it often want it free, and easy to access. (Flash games anyone?) One of the reasons
for this is the taboo stamp on drawn pornographic content. Patreon is a way to pay these devs to give you the "drug" people want, without leaving a game case of "Fuck me plenty oni-chan" in the bookshelf or in the steam libary. This in turn leads to the games with potential being bombared with money, fast, and that is something few people can deal with. Their project turns into something that needs to be "OMG ZO GREATZ!! So fast that the devs panic, turning the game into a mess."

Hope this clearify what I meant with "the horrors" of Breeding Season, and why I also included Simbro in the same category. In my eyes, Breeding season was doing fine, slowly growing, things getting added with a slow phase, but the slow phase clouded the judgement of some people and drove the team to ruin. Now this is what I think and I am a thrid part, if not a forth, but I see the same thing in Simbro. And I fear that this things might spread to other projects, especially on the "adult-game" market.
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Re: Why do ___ on your Patreon?!

Postby cheddaredgrizzly » Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:30 am

Nikag Wrote:I can comment on this from a creator side (I have a weird feeling that all this points can be applied to my project perfectly)
Spoiler (click to show/hide):

1. A Huge Gap between Patreon vs. Public Release: 2 months gap is not huge at all. More over usually creator do not expect everyone play every version of his/her game. On my project this gap is done in order to make supporters feel they get something except just a 'thank you' from my side. Do they worth it? I think they do, I love my patrons. I have roughly 2500 monthly patrons vs approximately 500 000 people playing every public game release. I'm not saying every of those 500 000 could throw 1$, but saying something nice about the game are welcome too - instead what I can often read on pirate torrents is "this shitty developer cannot produce more content into the game! I hate him being so slow / greedy / stupid / lazy". Wow, that's really expiring. Do you think I will put a top priority to satisfy these players at the costs of satisfaction of my patrons?

2. _# versions back: I had 1 and 2 versions back and I don't see any issue here. I don't think people should feel like crap when you send them regular free updates of the product production of which actually costs a lot. If adobe were allowing to use Photoshop older versions for free - I would not say them 'Hey, you treat me like crap! Give me the latest version you have!'. I mean - what makes you feel all that different when you speak about game and not, let's say, a movie or an application?

3. too many patron exclusive posts: 2 reason for this.
1. As hentaiwriter stated - Patreon force you to hide most of the content or get banned.
2. Creators usually have multiple tiers for their supporters - and creator need to split content is the way to (try) fill different tiers with some cool limited content for them. Is it fair? I don't know and I was on the both sides. When I pay for something - I wish this to be a little exclusive. When I get something free - I wish it had a better quality, but I'm usually okay with what I get.

So back to the initial question.
cheddaredgrizzly Wrote:why the F*** do some artists do some stupid ass stuff on their Patreon page! Let's face it. We've seen it before, and we are sick of it. Hopefully if you read this, maybe you can structure your Patreon page to be real friendly to potential patrons.

I think us, stupid artists, do stupid stuff on their Patreon page in order to 1) do not break Patreon rules (I have to share non-patron NSFW content via Tumblr and Twitter for example); 2) attract more patrons. Number of patrons directly influence quality of the project (in most cases) -> people, who like your game, but don't want to support you, still can enjoy increased quality in 1-2 months.
For example when I've got my first 1000$ support I've immediately started looking for a hired artist for my project (and yes, I was paying her most of my monthly patreon income).
Hired artist made things a lot better and faster at that time FOR EVERYONE who play the game, not just patrons.

So, from a creator point of view, I think you are overexerting the problem.
From a supporter's point of view - when I see someone's work and decide that "I want to support this guy" I just google his patreon page and pledge a support. When I see some extra sketches / small exclusive materials posted for patron's only - I am pleased, because I understand that this is a way he give his thanks to me for my support of his work.




I will state openly that I was thinking about your project for number 2, but the other stuff I had seen from other patreons as well.

Let me first state that if you feel openly attacked by this post, I do apologize for that, for it was not my intent. I Simply expressed frustration at certain actions some have done that I have personally found annoying.

addressing you points.
1. Point number 1 I write purely in the state of mind of a person who is just discovering the Patreon page for the first time, or a long time follower who might not have donated money for X,Y,Z reason. I see a more fast release date as a good way to give good advertising and PR. Plus, we must all admit that we are in the Adult games production on Patreon, at any moment can a game simply stop getting support by it's own developers. For Example- Nergal's Nest before his great return, had left A Zombies life in 1.0 Beta and Urban Demons at 0.6 beta 2. Both were still Patreon exclusive when they stopped getting updated, which meant people had No way of accessing those games unless they donated previously. Also, yes, Torrent forums are a breeding ground of hate and vile, but I was implying that one might not need to go to the torrent sites if the patreon page released a public version only a week from the patreon version.

2.What i meant to say for number 2 is that doing a delayed release where someone gets a version 2 back from the one being just released makes any fan who might not be a patreon feel like they are not seen in the same regard as the patron. As people have written before in these comments, many feel patreon should be used as a tip jar, rather than a pay wall. It simply feels that their is favoritism at play because this person paid, despite the fact that everyone who plays is a fan who will spread good word.

3. I feel like so much has changed with Patreon's content policy since I first wrote this that my third point is no longer applicable. It's hard for everybody with a Patreon right now, so Number 3 is no longer valid.

Nikag, I apologize for any harsh words that were said. I've been a fan of Leave2gether since it's early days, and I still love seeing new updates. For myself though, I wrote this out of frustration because it felt like despite the fact I loved your game, it didn't feel like there was any love for people like myself unless I went through that paywall.

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